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Mark_F

Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2012, 04:37:01 PM »
The main quality of a routing is that the golf course gets the most golf out of what's there.  Everything else is secondary.

Doesn't that give you Doonbeg though?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2012, 04:37:48 PM »
Peter,

It should be fairly easy to come up with the criteria for a good hole, not that some here would disagree, and all here would disagree to the the degree that it makes for forumula.  However, most players would say total visibility (lays out like road map), often from a gently elevated tee.  All the actual ground can vary quite a bit, but only a few things - reverse slope fw, 90 degree doglegs, and such - would be ID'd as making a bad hole.  There are a few more, I'm sure.  

Beyond those items, the easiest part to quantify is a hole that just "feels" awkward.  The hardest part to quantify is the "natural grace" good holes have.  A good routing can have 18 good holes, a great one needs most of those to have "grace" or natural flow.

As mentioned, I consider variety and close walks sort of second order stuff.  We have all those checklists about wind, up and down hill, yardage and dogleg balance.  Over the years, I found I picked the best of the dozens of routings based on the best holes, rather than the best balance.  A more real question for me tended to be "best holes" vs. "short walks".  Even then, I generally opted for the best holes, despite the obvious advantages of short walks.

Routing is an interesting excersize.  I have told the story about an architect I know.  Basically, he told me that he figured every course had a few bad holes, and his certainly do.  Good routing is probably as much hard work, considering options.  If you could find out how many routings the gca did, I would bet that more good routings came after two dozen routings than after two.

The best of mine came when I was able to put it away for a week, month, or year.  When I came back, things always looked different to me, and I came up with more good ideas later.  Sometimes, when there is pressure to get it out in a week, you get stuck on certain ideas (routers block?)  

One last note - I have no ideas how you could tell if the gca used the existing land forms "best" or not.  In my experience, the question wasn't to use or not use a landform, it was how to use it - backing ridge or fronting ridge, angle or straight, par 3 or par 5, etc. etc. etc.  Most good landforms can be used a few different ways, and the choice of how usually comes down to how the holes fit the land, and/or the gca preferences in creating that elusive balance or "ideal challenge".

Another last note from the posts by Hoak and Doak.....I loved a course as a kid that had one crossover, and was sublty influenced to use them as a quirky feature.  But, in the main, they really don't work all that well in the circulation of the golf course, and I now try to avoid them.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 04:40:40 PM »
The main quality of a routing is that the golf course gets the most golf out of what's there.  Everything else is secondary.

Doesn't that give you Doonbeg though?

Doonbeg is a strange routing; Norman and co. really went out on a limb there in a lot of ways.  I would still give it high marks if I thought it produced the best possible holes.  But I didn't think it worked.  For me, it just called attention to the areas where they weren't allowed to work, and felt like they were forced into it because they couldn't give up certain holes they liked.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 04:44:16 PM »
Jeff:

When I mentioned crossovers, I was only talking about crossing over the path between two other holes, because I assumed that's what Jim Hoak was talking about.  I wasn't talking about hitting across another hole or walking across another hole ... although I am doing exactly that on our new project in N.Z.  I'm sure that will be a conversation piece, but the course is going to be exclusive enough that I don't see it presenting a major traffic/safety problem.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2012, 05:17:28 PM »
Jeff:

When I mentioned crossovers, I was only talking about crossing over the path between two other holes, because I assumed that's what Jim Hoak was talking about.  I wasn't talking about hitting across another hole or walking across another hole ... although I am doing exactly that on our new project in N.Z.  I'm sure that will be a conversation piece, but the course is going to be exclusive enough that I don't see it presenting a major traffic/safety problem.

Hitting across or walking across another hole?
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2012, 05:18:45 PM »
TD,

That's what I was referring to as well.  Going beyond the closet tee to get to the tee on your hole. For that matter, I always like combined tees (saw them first at Medinah No.3 at 11/now 13).  I haven't had the luxury of designing the exclusive, low play private club, where that wouldn't be a problem.  Even so, I am reminded of the story that when there were only two cars in the State of Kansas back about 1900, they did manage to collide.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_F

Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2012, 05:26:54 PM »
Doonbeg is a strange routing; Norman and co. really went out on a limb there in a lot of ways.  I would still give it high marks if I thought it produced the best possible holes.  But I didn't think it worked.  For me, it just called attention to the areas where they weren't allowed to work, and felt like they were forced into it because they couldn't give up certain holes they liked.
Killing your darlings.  Everyone creative usually has to do it.  Maybe that's what separates the good architects from the adequate.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2012, 05:32:00 PM »
As I was reading this thread, I was thinking pretty much what Niall said earlier -- a good routing gets overlooked and you only really notice it when it is bad. Kind of like a ref or an offensive lineman.

I, like most on here, like short green-to-tee walks. I don't mind walk-backs as much if I can drop my bag. Back and forth golf isn't my favorite nor are courses where a huge number of courses travel essentially only two directions (the course I grew up on has 12 holes that go essentially N-S, a club I was a member at has 13 holes that are essentially E-W).

On Sunday, I was among the Minnesota guys who played at Windsong Farm. One of the things I like about that routing is that you get to the 17th hole and you play a hole that goes in a direction (SW) that you haven't really played all day. With the way the wind blows there, that's interesting to me. You have to really give thought as to what the wind is doing, but it will be coming from a different place.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2012, 05:58:02 PM »
On Sunday, I was among the Minnesota guys who played at Windsong Farm. One of the things I like about that routing is that you get to the 17th hole and you play a hole that goes in a direction (SW) that you haven't really played all day. With the way the wind blows there, that's interesting to me. You have to really give thought as to what the wind is doing, but it will be coming from a different place.

There are a couple of tee shots that are essentially SW at Windsong, before 17, but your point is solid. Windsong's holes take you in a whole bunch of directions.

You reminded me of my observation about Midland Hills, after playing there a few times:

4 par 3s -- heading essentially S, E, W, N.

4 par 5s -- heading essentially N, S, E, W.

Another point in favor of Midland's routing (which you noted yesterday): a scarcity of spots where "FORE!" will regularly be heard.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 06:20:16 PM »
Mark...

I believe your question, as posed, is unanswerable.  As the answer is site specific and changes with every piece of land.

I beleieve Tom Doak has put up the best possible answer, however.

Also, speak with Wade Schueneman regarding this topic.  His ability to grasp this concept, frankly, blows me away.

Mac,

I think it is answerable in the following way.....The metaphysical fit of the architects vision of the golf course applied to the reality of the land as it physically exists. Different for every piece of land.... Different architects see it differently...... Some more successful than others. This is an intuitive description and not a concrete one.

Brad

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2012, 06:27:37 PM »
Brad,

Routing isn't quite as "metaphsyical" as many gca groupies tend to think......If we took your definition which includes the architects vision, etc., it is still hard to evaluate in any other way than if the holes are good.  It has been concluded here numerous times that golfers don't really care how the gca got there, only if they like it.

I agree most know what they like intuitively, and can't (with the exception of some good players, who lay it out as I did above) quantify it.

Of course, the OP was what do YOU look for in a routing, so again, I would expect the answers to fall into a few very different categories of opinions, along the lines of better players, quirk junkies, etc.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2012, 07:27:52 PM »
As I was reading this thread, I was thinking pretty much what Niall said earlier -- a good routing gets overlooked and you only really notice it when it is bad. Kind of like a ref or an offensive lineman.


Jeff:

When we first walked through the routing for Sebonack together, we had only got to the third hole when Jack Nicklaus said, "This is a better piece of land than I thought."  And I smiled, because I figured that meant the routing was really good.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2012, 07:36:42 PM »
Tom,

That's pretty high praise.

When I play a course for the first time, I usually don't think about routing until the end. I like to see how it unfolds. I often won't realize a good routing is seamless until the end.

It's when things are weird -- a huge green-to-tee walk, a feature that is awkward, a kind of nothing hole that doesn't do much other than link holes -- it stands out more.

There are obviously lots of reasons why that might happen. A course might have a new hole or two, the good land might have gone to lots, there could be environmental reasons, etc.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2012, 08:17:52 PM »
One thing that hasn't been mentioned as much is the role that the routing plays on the overall impression of the player.

I think what Niall said still probably holds true: a good rouing can get overlooked. But a great routing...?

I think a great routing can draw the player's focus towards and away from the golf itself. Not all properties are gifted in the same way, but hopefully there is some sort of highlight. The routing should use the properties best features in a way that makes the course the best it can be, but if those features can be brought to the attention of the player through other vistas of the course even better!

A more recent example that has been discussed extensively here is the 14th at Bandon Trails. The hole has been praised and cursed, but many agree that the routing of the course reaches a crescendo when the golfer arrives on the tee. The view from that spot is amazing, and in many ways the walk (cart ride ugh) up there builds the anticipation. Going from the peaceful meadow holes to suddenly overlooking windswept dunes and a tiny L-shaped green on the side of a hill, well it makes quite the impression.

I think there are many examples that serve the same purpose as Bandon's 14th, but a long walk up a hill to a lookout spot is not necessarily the style that the routing needs in order to give the golfer a strong emotive response. Another example is the 16th at Pasatiempo. You hit out to the knoll fariway and as you make your way around the dogleg and up the rise, you look towards the green and see huge flashes of sand and a putting surface that many have described as "cartoonish". It's great architecture and perhaps that's what we notice it for, but it wouldn't be quite the same if the reveal was not there.

To put my ramblings into a coherent point: I think the greatest purpose a routing serves, beyond finding good golf holes, is to reveal to the golfer the highlights of the property and golf course, and to do so continuously.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you look for in a routing?
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2012, 10:44:37 PM »
I also like a routing that evokes or calls attention to the sense of locale.  That isn't always possible, particularly if the locale is nothing but a parade of homes.  Usually, a routing through a parade of homes is never good, at all.  But, when a piece of land, has interesting elevation and internal tee to green contours, which also have an orientation that ties in or reveals the golf setting in relation to the surrounding locale, then that routing has a positive feature, and if the varied other things like direction changes, flow, efficient use of land to provide walkability and sound drainage patterns all offering interesting golf holes, well then that is a good thing, IMO.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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