Strategy

[M. Shea Sweeney]

What courses have as much strategy as the National Golf Links?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The Old Course for one.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

That's it? One reply? Come on, you guys are better than that!

[Jon Wiggett]

The course I grew up playing Dewsbury District GC whilst not one of the great courses is an outstanding matchplay course full of stategy and decisions.

Jon

[Mike Benham]

What courses have as much strategy as the National Golf Links?

Do you want us to take into consideration the golfers ability to hit a variety of golf shots that make some of the strategic options a realistic option?

[Tom_Doak]

Where are all the Rustic Canyon fan base?

I would be loathe to say that any of my own courses have AS MUCH strategy as the National Golf Links.

Of the courses I have built, I would say that these have the most strategy (in order that I built them, not which have the most):

Lost Dunes (though nearly all of it is in the approach shots, there is a ton of it there)
Stonewall North (see above)
Barnbougle Dunes
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Rock Creek
Old Macdonald

I will say that I don't identify the same things as "strategy" that some others do.  For some, every added bunker is added strategy.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:

Interesting to me that you didn't include Pac Dunes and St. Andrew's Beach on that list.  There are certainly great moments of decision/indecision on each course.  But perhaps the need to make a choice isn't as persistent as it is on the other courses you noted.

Question for the group, we often talk about direction and distance with regards to strategy.  Should shot height be a factor as well, or is it more a matter of reacting to the conditions of the day? 

Sven

[Carl Rogers]

...Lost Dunes (though nearly all of it is in the approach shots, there is a ton of it there)
...

Riverfront gets its local identity from its greens, but it is the approach shots that offer a lot of options particulary if you are just slightly out of position.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Interesting to me that you didn't include Pac Dunes and St. Andrew's Beach on that list.  There are certainly great moments of decision/indecision on each course.  But perhaps the need to make a choice isn't as persistent as it is on the other courses you noted.

Pacific Dunes should have been on my list.  I often don't include it on lists of my best work because it's always presumed to be at the top anyway, but it is one of our very best courses strategically ... especially the front nine with all those great par-4 holes.

Really, a lot of this question (which courses are most interesting strategically) would dovetail with a list of the courses that have the best set of par-4 holes.

[Mike Benham]

Where are all the Rustic Canyon fan base?

Your turn Mr. Naccarato ...

[Garland Bayley]

Where are all the Rustic Canyon fan base?
...
Old Macdonald
...

The public golf course player that plays Rustic Canyon doesn't get much of a chance to play NGLA.
A few more get to play Old Macdonald, but the intersection of players of both can be quite small.

And, Tommy doesn't post here any more.

[Alex Miller]

Where are all the Rustic Canyon fan base?
...
Old Macdonald
...

The public golf course player that plays Rustic Canyon doesn't get much of a chance to play NGLA.
A few more get to play Old Macdonald, but the intersection of players of both can be quite small.

And, Tommy doesn't post here any more.

All right, I'll bite...

I've played both and found Rustic more strategic. But I only played Old Mac once, and in the less suitable wind, so I am not able to say as well as some others.

Regarding Rustic Canyon, I think there are only a handful of shots on the course where I do not put a great deal of thought into the shot. My least favorite hole is the 7th, but the addition of the right fairway to the hole has opened up option for when the pin is on the right half of the green, and it's now a legitimate option off the tee. It's a more strategic hole than before, but I do wish I had gotten to the course when the original was still there.

I think on two of the par threes there might be two of the least strategic shots/holes on the course. 8 and 15 both call for an aerial shot that goes the right distance and really there is not much else to do but hit it straight and not go long. Although this is the case, I like that there are a couple of all or nothing shots mixed in and in many ways only adds to the variety of the course. The only caveat is perhaps the leftside pin on #8, for which there is no decision to be made but to go for the center of the green, but watching newcomers not realize this can produce hilarious consequences.

I would also say that the northbound par 5s with the exception of 13 (so that's 5, 9, and 10) do not impose as much decision making on the player as the rest of the course, but they are each unique and provide their own challenges.

I have not played NGLA, so I can't really answer the question of this thread. I would be up for defending the strategic virtues of Rustic if anyone feels that it does lack strategy, and I'd love to hear what might set NGLA apart from other courses (specifically I mean: I am well aware of the greatness via pictures, essays, threads, etc...).

[Mark_F]

Lost Dunes (though nearly all of it is in the approach shots, there is a ton of it there)
Stonewall North (see above)
Barnbougle Dunes
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Rock Creek
Old Macdonald

It's interesting that you can put Barnbougle Dunes on there but not St Andrews Beach.  St Andrews Beach is miles more strategic than Barnbougle.

[Joe_Tucholski]

All right, I'll bite...

I've played both and found Rustic more strategic. But I only played Old Mac once, and in the less suitable wind, so I am not able to say as well as some others.

Regarding Rustic Canyon, I think there are only a handful of shots on the course where I do not put a great deal of thought into the shot. My least favorite hole is the 7th, but the addition of the right fairway to the hole has opened up option for when the pin is on the right half of the green, and it's now a legitimate option off the tee. It's a more strategic hole than before, but I do wish I had gotten to the course when the original was still there.

I think on two of the par threes there might be two of the least strategic shots/holes on the course. 8 and 15 both call for an aerial shot that goes the right distance and really there is not much else to do but hit it straight and not go long. Although this is the case, I like that there are a couple of all or nothing shots mixed in and in many ways only adds to the variety of the course. The only caveat is perhaps the leftside pin on #8, for which there is no decision to be made but to go for the center of the green, but watching newcomers not realize this can produce hilarious consequences.

I would also say that the northbound par 5s with the exception of 13 (so that's 5, 9, and 10) do not impose as much decision making on the player as the rest of the course, but they are each unique and provide their own challenges.

I have not played NGLA, so I can't really answer the question of this thread. I would be up for defending the strategic virtues of Rustic if anyone feels that it does lack strategy, and I'd love to hear what might set NGLA apart from other courses (specifically I mean: I am well aware of the greatness via pictures, essays, threads, etc...).

My experience is the same as Alex.  The only thing I would mildly disagree with is #5 and #10 both provide me with plenty of choices from the one up tees I typically play.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I posted this thread to see what courses you think might have as much strategy as the National.

To me strategy mean you need to play a shot to point or area "A" so that your shot to point or area "B" is made easier.

Take #16-- Played it recently from the back tee and hit a drive just left of where I needed to and ended up down in the hollow on the left side of the fairway about 175 out-- completely blind. I love that-- Had I hit a better shot just inside the right side fairway bunker my approach would be less awkward. There is a ton of this at National.

Isn't this the essence of golf course architecture?

[Matthew Mollica]

Lost Dunes (though nearly all of it is in the approach shots, there is a ton of it there)
Stonewall North (see above)
Barnbougle Dunes
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Rock Creek
Old Macdonald

It's interesting that you can put Barnbougle Dunes on there but not St Andrews Beach.  St Andrews Beach is miles more strategic than Barnbougle.

+1 here Mark.

I've not played NGLA, but is RMW as strategic?

[Mark_F]

+1 here Mark.

I've not played NGLA, but is RMW as strategic?

Matt,

No course with predominantly large greens and wide fairways is strategic, and RMW proves that point as much as anything.

[Jon Wiggett]

+1 here Mark.

I've not played NGLA, but is RMW as strategic?

Matt,

No course with predominantly large greens and wide fairways is strategic, and RMW proves that point as much as anything.

Does not large greens and wide fairways describe Old Macdonald? I have not played it but I understand that is considered strategic.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Alex,

Rustic more than OM? The only way I can imagine that is if you are a hit one long followed by hit one high type of player.