[Mike Hendren]

I shared with Craig Disher that perhaps Chechessee Creek is the most classical modern (post 1950) course built to date:

Roomy off the tee.
Bunkering for obfuscation as much as penalty.
Hard par, easy bogey.
Pushed up greens, generally sloping up toward the rear.
Broad spectrum of green square footage.

Agree?

Any others?

Mike

[Alex Lagowitz]

I would generally agree with you, however 'hard par, easy bogey' is not a classical design trait.  That was the philosophy of RTJ.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I would agree, and add proximity of green /tees to make it wonderfully walkable, but perhaps that is somehwhat taken for granted.
Add the atmosphere inside the clubhouse and you have the perfect golf experience.

The size of the green complexes is also a throw back, those are very very small greens especially when playing from the tips and hitting those kind os clubs into them.
How they were able to achieve that "rough" look on the course and yet it still play mainatined still baffles me....marvelous place..never could get tired of playing there.

[Mike Hendren]

Alex, you are correct that the hard par, easy bogey quote is attributed to RTJ.   Also, some opine that he borrowed it from Donald J. Ross.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

MW-P, good call on the green to tee walks, though I must confess they could have been even more intimate in places.  From 2 green to 3rd tee was ideal.  

[Bill Crane]

Chechessee Creek is just excellent.   It was the prime reason I joined the O C.  New owner seemed to be doing some nice work when I was there in early April. 

The more you play it, the more interesting it becomes, with the angles off tees and into greens very well conceived and implemented.  Even the trees on doglegs seem to be on the right angles to effect play.  Seems to play longer than 6,600 yards as well.

Greens are very narrow and hard to hit.  I spoke to a group from Greenwich CT staying at the lodge, and the one fellow noted after playing Secession that while Chechessee seems easier it is actually more difficult to score since the greens were so difficult to hit and get near the pin.  Better to miss in front that wide.  With mown areas near green, chipping with a hybrid can be effective.

Many of the greens are segmented in interesting ways. The 14th green is an excellent example since there are several small steps to the green as you go up the slope, and the little plateaus are bisected by a slight ridge.

Great walking course that really grows on you, attractive site, charming clubhouse with welcoming staff.   Can't wait to get back, will probably be there next week!!

WmFlynnFan

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bill
Couldnt agree more, miss the greens at CC and you can be left with some very challenging chip shots.
The smae at Seccession has more fringe for close misses, very little fringe areas at CC and because of the 'PUSH UP' nature of the greens always playing from a slope to a sloped green.

But waht a treat to be able to play both courses on the same trip

[Bill Crane]

Maybe next spring I will sneak over to Secession with my buddies one day.

Pysched to play CCC next Monday and Wednesday on our fall Anniversary trip.  Ironically, my wife broke 100 the first time at Chechessee.  She kept missing the greens short and the caddie coached into running shots up the green slopes with her 5 iron and hybrid and she got up and down a few times.

I love chipping up the slopes with a hybrid, even the steeper ones from the side that are cut down, I call it my "Chechessee" shot whenever I chip that way.

Can't recall ever parring 18! But I don't think I've made double either.

Big point, Chechessee really grows on you, and the more you play the more interesting it seems.

WmFlynnFan

[Jerry Kluger]

I agree that CCC is a course that we would all enjoy playing over and over again.  But I would point out that when we played the 17th hole in our match Rich Goodale and I flew the bunkers and had short pitches to the green.  Rich lives in Scotland but chose a lofted wedge and stuck it a few feet from the hole.  I have to believe that C & C designed the course with much firmer conditions in mind.  It would also bring the fairway bunkers more into play and probably the greenside bunkers as well. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There is a C@C course next to Reynolds Plantations that would take that crown away. I am not sure that any and all of the Bandon courses would as well. Bogie on a golf high with his vols going O for October.

[Mike Hendren]

Bogie on a golf high with his vols going O for October.

Merely further proof that, with the exception of Tiger Bernhardt, NOTHING good comes out of Louisiana, including a orange pants clad Gomer on crutches.

Bogey

[Mac Plumart]

I agree Chechessee is very classic feeling in everything from clubhouse, property, vibe, and course.  Way more so than Cuscowilla.  The routing over a street, a parking lot, right next to condos from 9 to 10  seals the "contest" in favor of Chechessee.  And then the tee shot over the lake on 10 Cuscowilla isn't overly classic feeling to me.  But I do like Cuscowilla more.

The Bandon courses, however, feel even more classic than Chechessee does.  And that is saying something.

[Bruce Wellmon]

I have not played Cuscowilla, but I have played Bandon Trails.
There is an inherant feel to CCC however. A vibe. Starts with the drive in. And finishes with the walk off 18 to your buds having buds at those tables on the grass. And it's a good vibe.
Mac, we need to play Cuscowilla, so I can see what you like about it more than CCC. 
I

[Carson Pilcher]

I am a HUGE fan of Cuscowilla.  There are many holes there where the angles are a determining factor to the ability to score.  There are great long two shotters, but there are also some fantastic 300-325 holes that are difficult with optional angles for multiple players.

Now, I know this is a topic about Chechesse....SO I must go play there to see if it can top Cuscowilla in my book.

Thanks for the posts and inspiration to go visit!

[ward peyronnin]

I am hesitant to weigh in on this but I do hold definite feelings for this line of discussion. I am also mindful of those who are closely connected to the club and want to avoid the spoiled feeling I have experienced when hearing criticism of courses I have been close to in the past so I want to limit my comments to two "classic features".

I guess I first must ask what exactly classic means. Yes the overall experience is well paced and presented and enjoyable. But this is not a course i could play everyday. The property is not manifestly favorable to golf. Flat and monotonous. C&C have confronted this by creating landforms of the greens to add some variety. However why, if this is the artifice available to distinguish a course, would one offer time after time the same presentation? Back to front greens without notable internal variety of movement on almost every hole? It reminds me of the 1920's pedestrian  muni courses of home.

Secondly while the bunkering feature "natural" borders there seems to be a propensity to rely on flash faces containment bunkers at the edges of doglegs or other corridors of play. Most classic courses true to pre war I have played rely on flat bottom browed bunkers.

It is different from many Carolina courses and walkable and has other meritorious qualities but is not imho an iconic golf course

[BCrosby]

Mac says:

"But I do like Cuscowilla more."

I vote with Mac. CC is a delight. But Cusco is a better golf course.

Bob

[Mac Plumart]

Ward...excellent post. 

Bruce...let's link up at Cuscowilla.  It is really a must play given where you live. 

Carson...you will very, very much enjoy Chechesse.  Rent a cabin, spend the night, play at least 36.  It is one of the best golf outing experiences there is.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Guys saying a course stands behind Cuscowilla and the Bandon courses is not a negative. It frankly is putting the course in the best of company at the top of modern golf courses. I only know of one friend who is a Member there and he loves every square inch of the place, so not doubt it belongs in discussion of wonderful golf experiences. Oh Bogie, the Orange pants man comes from Georgia not Louisiana. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Just cant go with the Cuscowilla being a better golf course than Chechessee...I like it but I dont think it has the inherent flow of a better than average course.
It is disjointed in its routing and just lacks the normal flow of  c&c course.
I always got the feeling that this was an early piece of work from an artist preparing to make a masterpiece, almost but not quite.
At CCC I feel that the architects got exactly what they set out to do, perhaps not a masterpiece, but what they wanted.
Some of the greens are ridculous in severity, on the verge of being unplayable to certain pin placements..and just not as much fun to play.

[Morgan Clawson]

Bogey -
I agree that CCC has a very classic feel to it. I am not qualified to say if it is the most classic feeling course built since 1950.

I heartily agree with Doc Wellmon that the vibe there is very special.  I do think it had the best vibe of all the courses I have played.  The scale, design, and decor of the clubhouse is perfect. The polite and friendly, but not snobby or fussy demeanor of the employees was wonderful. The course is beautiful and peaceful.

I only took 1 photo on the trip, but it was a pretty good one.  The par 3 7th at Chechessee:

[Matthew Essig]

Bogey -
I agree that CCC has a very classic feel to it. I am not qualified to say if it is the most classic feeling course built since 1950.

I heartily agree with Doc Wellmon that the vibe there is very special.  I do think it had the best vibe of all the courses I have played.  The scale, design, and decor of the clubhouse is perfect. The polite and friendly, but not snobby or fussy demeanor of the employees was wonderful. The course is beautiful and peaceful.

I only took 1 photo on the trip, but it was a pretty good one.  The par 3 7th at Chechessee:

That looks absolutely beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[Mike Hendren]

Morgan, thanks for posting that photo.  It was a treat to go around Chechessee with you and I was delighted that you played so well.  

I've got to pull out the yardage books and study a little more before I address many of the points raised in this thread, notably Chechessee v. Cuscowilla.   Cusco is perhaps the better course, though it has a distinct modern feel to me.  I do stand by my original contention however, relying on many of the similarities I see between CCC and Holston Hills.  The latter has rightly been heralded as the original deal by both the cognoscenti and Golfweek's Classic List.  While its topography is more varied with Ross utilizing his typical routing skills to site greens at the top or near the top of rises, it too is roomy off the tee and the general bunkering scheme and green complexes for both courses are of the same vein.  

Finally, The Big Ward commented that CCC reminded him of "the 1920's pedestrian muni courses back home."  I find this to be a testament to classic architecture, not an indictment.  It is precisely these courses - lay of the land efforts with minimal shaping that have remained largely unchanged over time due to budget constraints, that are the genuine articles when it comes to Golden Age architecture.

Bogey

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

the posted photograph reminded me of something else that has struck me whilst playing CCC.
The use of large pine tress like th none behind the green at #7 as targets.
Almost every hole utilises a single of prominent group of trees as the ideal line off the tee.It is subtle in nature but highly reliable and accurate in its line.

[Mike_Young]

CCC will evolve as the better of the two between itself and Cuscowilla.  The entire lake area around CCC will be an interesting study as the economy recovers.  the Reynolds Plantation team created what I consider the best ever marketing job in golf when it took the poorest county in the State of Ga on a very shallow lake and made it into a national destination resort.  I think when it recovers it will be looked at as a regional resort. CCC also has a much better set-up going forward.  I like both courses but hole #14 will always be a weak point at Cuscowilla and keep it from being the better of the two IMHO.

[Mike Hendren]

Mike, I have a different take on the 14th at Cusco:  It's pure cross-country golf across land ill-suited for that purpose - I find that appealing in a weird way.  I'm less a fan of the 7th and 12th, two claustrophobic short par fours where trees provide the only strategy, the 18th which feels like a finisher at a Tennessee state park course and the 3rd which looks like a water hole designed by a third rate architect.

Also, while I don't mind playing off a natural ground cover of pine needles, I don't like the mulching effect where more needles are imported and spread.  Hopefully they no longer do that at Cusco. 

More later.

Bogey

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