News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2012, 02:20:39 PM »
Steve - Thanks for the additional insight on the 18th.  Always helps to hear from someone who's watched hundreds of shots on a given hole. 

Like Jim Urbina said, Paramount was restoring an interpretation of the Reef hole, and this version certainly offers plenty of options that you normally wouldn't have on a one-shotter. 

Honestly, I don't know if any members would want an exact updated version of the Reef that Tillie described (225 yards updated for technology), especially as a finishing hole.  That difficult a closer would probably leave a sour taste for some.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2012, 04:42:39 PM »
Kevin, something has to be done about 7.  Why not add a Great Hazard?  It's Tillie's most famous and celebrated contribution to strategic design templates.  They can't have people teeing off blind on 7 with a driver.  And you;re not necessarily "in the clear" once you play down to the bottom, you still have to execute a heroic shot.

Not every hazard has to be an exact copy or do exactly the same hing on every course - sometimes you can position the hazard to do other things.  Saying a Great Hazard isn't  Great Hazard" simply because it's not positioned in exactly the same place every time is misguided.  We have two shot redans don't we?  we have biarritz greens on par-fours don't we?  We have reverse redans and reverse road holes and  Principal's Nose bunkers on all sorts of different holes and places.  It's the variety in the use of the templates and other arrows in the quiver that gives courses character.

Jay,

I agree that we don't need exact copies, and that people often get hung up on those things here.  The examples you mentioned (e.g. biarritz green on par 4) are things I agree with.  But, in each of those examples, the features still maintained some similar playing characteristics.  Whether a redan-like hole plays left-to-right or right-to-left doesn't change the shotmaking element (i.e. using the slopes to navigate around a hazard on one side).

For example, a derivative of the "Great Hazard" on a par 4 could be a large cross hazard shortly before the green, whereby you could not reach the green unless you were bold off the tee.  That type of derivative would represent some of the shotmaking demands from the "template."

However, the proposal you suggested simply doesn't bear any semblance to the strategy that was intended in Tillinghast's Great Hazard contribution to GCA. 

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/The_Great_Hazard.html

In none of the examples on the Tillinghast site would the Great Hazard be used to take Driver out of the player's hands.  I just think Great Hazard means more than "Big Cross Hazard."  Without the strategic element, it's just a big hazard.  In a way, it would be like having a redan-like sloped green, but without any hazard to negotiate.


I'm not saying your solution is the wrong solution to Paramount's particular problem, as it would be an aesthetic way of addressing the potential liability concerns of the road.  But to label it as an example of Tillinghast's "Great Hazard" would actually represent the opposite of what Tillinghast intended (to demand two formidable shots to clear the hazard in order to reach a Par 5 in three). 


You said something needs to be done with the 7th at Paramount.  But, I think part of the reason people feel that way is because there is a Par 5 which currently forbids people from hitting driver off the tee (by local rule).  All your suggested solution does is apply the same restriction via a penal disincentive.  In either case, the restriction of options from the tee is less than optimal.

I wish I had a better solution which would allow the hole to be played freely, but I really don't (short of the unlikely implementation of a traffic-control device).  If the only feasible solution is to take driver out of the players' hands, then your solution may be neat, but I think it would mostly be cosmetic.

***********************

Having said all the above, I hope you don't feel attacked by my comments.  Overall, I have always liked your articles and writing style, and this piece was no exception.  I hope we can have a reasonable difference of opinions of what constitutes the intent of "template" holes.

I think Brian & Jim have been doing a great job out at Paramount (it was a remarkable discovery last year). Like you, I was struck by the overall culture of the club, which is very relaxed and family-friendly.  When I visited last year, the one thing that struck me was how much the club was actually being utilized on a Sunday afternoon (both golf & non-golf).  It's clear that management is doing something very right at Paramount.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2012, 04:50:54 PM »
While I've been out of the country for the past 10 days, I've periodically checked in on this thread and restrained myself from weighing in...until now.

Tom Doak,

 Your questioning of the Reef Hole and it's lack of definitive spine might well be valid, however, it seems a wee bit picayune as we all know features that existed over 80yrs ago don't always survive time. An earnest and realistic restoration can't always be expected to accurately reproduce every feature to perfect scale or ancient value. In this case, Jim did a marvelous job recreating the majority of Tilly's original intent. Nevertheless, your question is a good one and leaves us thinking even more.

Jay,

  Thanks for your continuing attention and persistent interest. I know my busy schedule hasn't always made me available to help you, but we do appreciate your enthusiasm for what we are doing to with the club and course. It's always nice to see Jim and Brian's terrific work (and Steve's most valuable input and advice) go recognized. Like I've said privately to many, I'm entirely convinced that we are immensely lucky to have three of the game's best practitioners all working together to make it better. It's rare to have one expert whose passion for excellence runs deep, but three guys (not named Larry, Moe and Curly ;D) is off the charts!

Kevin, et.al.,

  You are spot on about # 7 (and add #1 to the mix). Their perpendicular crossing of Zukor Rd remains problematic for us, from a safety and playability perspective. Road traffic there, on most any day, is busy and and conducted at erratic speeds. I too agree that a "great hazard" isn't quite the answer, but we are working on a number of different solutions and will continue to experiment with several before we settle on anything final. It's taken several years to earn the trust of our existing members and they've exhibited strong preferences for different solutions, so we're going to tread slowly and surely to reach the best possible solution.

Let's all remember this was a AWT design for a private, one-member course, never once intended upon hosting many others or competitive events. That principle has functionally changed for the former, but not for the later. We've asked Jim to see to restoring as much of Tilly's originality as possible, all under the guise of providing our membership with a high-quality, fun, eminently playable and inspiring 18 holes. If we ever do host any competitive events, they'll likely only be with spoons and mashies, or local highly-proficient amateurs.

The entire Paramount restoration project has been a true labor of love for me and those who've born witness know my only goal is to leave it better than I found it. Like Steve said, I hope you'll come up and see it with your own eyes.

Now...back to watching assorted livestock and various wildlife fly past my windows riding 60-70mph winds  :o :o
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2012, 05:07:40 PM »
Yeah seriously, Steve are you and the Paramount folks okay? How about your family in Jersey?  What a bloody mess!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2012, 08:36:21 PM »
We survived. Many of our trees did not.... such a shame.   ;D  I did my best to keep the twitter feed (@PCCGREENS) updated leading up to and through the storm, but sometime overnight cell service got pretty bad and it hasn't come back on since.  We are expecting to be without power for a while and it will most likely be several days until the golf course can open again.

Fortunately the rain was not at all severe.  We did our best to button things up leading up to the storm, but Monday morning we had 4 tees and 6 bunkers in various states of completion.  Several inches of rain could have been a major problem for us, I'm happy we will be able to get right back to work once we get tree debris cleaned up.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 12:03:36 PM »
Kevin, et.al.,

  You are spot on about # 7 (and add #1 to the mix). Their perpendicular crossing of Zukor Rd remains problematic for us, from a safety and playability perspective. Road traffic there, on most any day, is busy and and conducted at erratic speeds. I too agree that a "great hazard" isn't quite the answer, but we are working on a number of different solutions and will continue to experiment with several before we settle on anything final. It's taken several years to earn the trust of our existing members and they've exhibited strong preferences for different solutions, so we're going to tread slowly and surely to reach the best possible solution.

Let's all remember this was a AWT design for a private, one-member course, never once intended upon hosting many others or competitive events. That principle has functionally changed for the former, but not for the later. We've asked Jim to see to restoring as much of Tilly's originality as possible, all under the guise of providing our membership with a high-quality, fun, eminently playable and inspiring 18 holes. If we ever do host any competitive events, they'll likely only be with spoons and mashies, or local highly-proficient amateurs.


Steve,

Hope you are surviving the aftermath of Sandy.

I really liked your point about the course initially being built as a private, one-member course.  This may actually be the missing piece on the Reef discussion.  For all we know, 195 yards was the Brassie/Spoon distance for Adolf Zukor, which is why it wasn't built to the 225+ yard distance written about by Tillie. 

Also, as you mentioned about #7 (&1), you have existing members with strong preferences, and their opinion is of the most importance.  It's a nice mental exercise for us to discuss the true intent of a Great Hazard or the proper length of a Reef hole on GCA, but I recognize that theory lags far behind the reality of member satisfaction.  And on that count, it appears that you are succeeding.

Out of curiosity, what are the primary suggested solutions being weighed for #7?


As for competition, I think a Hickory event would be perfect for Paramount.  I think the Society of Hickory Golfers would love to have an event on such a classic track.  I've been taking my set on the road with me all year, trying them on a range of courses, from the serenity of Southern Pines through the severity of Ballyhack.  Paramount's 18th has me debating between my cleek and driving iron.  :)

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 03:06:32 PM »
Kevin, et.al.,

  You are spot on about # 7 (and add #1 to the mix). Their perpendicular crossing of Zukor Rd remains problematic for us, from a safety and playability perspective. Road traffic there, on most any day, is busy and and conducted at erratic speeds. I too agree that a "great hazard" isn't quite the answer, but we are working on a number of different solutions and will continue to experiment with several before we settle on anything final. It's taken several years to earn the trust of our existing members and they've exhibited strong preferences for different solutions, so we're going to tread slowly and surely to reach the best possible solution.

Let's all remember this was a AWT design for a private, one-member course, never once intended upon hosting many others or competitive events. That principle has functionally changed for the former, but not for the later. We've asked Jim to see to restoring as much of Tilly's originality as possible, all under the guise of providing our membership with a high-quality, fun, eminently playable and inspiring 18 holes. If we ever do host any competitive events, they'll likely only be with spoons and mashies, or local highly-proficient amateurs.


Steve,

Hope you are surviving the aftermath of Sandy.

I really liked your point about the course initially being built as a private, one-member course.  This may actually be the missing piece on the Reef discussion.  For all we know, 195 yards was the Brassie/Spoon distance for Adolf Zukor, which is why it wasn't built to the 225+ yard distance written about by Tillie. 

Also, as you mentioned about #7 (&1), you have existing members with strong preferences, and their opinion is of the most importance.  It's a nice mental exercise for us to discuss the true intent of a Great Hazard or the proper length of a Reef hole on GCA, but I recognize that theory lags far behind the reality of member satisfaction.  And on that count, it appears that you are succeeding.

Out of curiosity, what are the primary suggested solutions being weighed for #7?


As for competition, I think a Hickory event would be perfect for Paramount.  I think the Society of Hickory Golfers would love to have an event on such a classic track.  I've been taking my set on the road with me all year, trying them on a range of courses, from the serenity of Southern Pines through the severity of Ballyhack.  Paramount's 18th has me debating between my cleek and driving iron.  :)


Hurricane Sandy, and the last 5 days, have been a royal cluster...k for my family and me. We returned from a vacation abroad on Sunday afternoon just in time to hunker down and receive horrible news away from home.

 Those of us on the East Coast are safe, if inconvenienced, and my folks on the West Coast are going through monumental tragedies.  I'm writing this from Newark Airport where I am staying now until I can get out there to be of some help.

For anyone who cares (and to finally debunk that GCA idiot who claimed wind speeds weren't severe), Far Hills was walloped, on Monday night, with sustained winds of over 90mph. We are powerless and don't expect any resumption until mid-next week at the earliest. My neighbors and myself spent most of yesterday getting supplies to a few less fortunate in a nearby road-stranded nursing home a mile away. Personally, several huge trees (50-90 ft) fell on my property as well as across many of the nearby roads. Thank goodness no one was injured!! I had to zig-zag across multiple back roads  for 30 min just to get the 3 miles to nearby Rte. 78!

We have a generator, but it has some electrical issues and has gone thru two 12V batteries. Nothing like learning basic wiring on the fly. Hopefully it holds up now.

I'd love to go on more about our thoughts and possibilities at Paramount, but that'll have to wait until later. I know it's in great hands for now and doesn't need me at present. I apologize for all this venting, but I wanted to let you know I'll get back to golf when there's time. Right now, helping others and taking care of loved ones is my only priority. I hope no one ever has to go through this stuff/hell. Mother Nature demands our respect and we should never forget that!

The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix*
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 06:06:52 PM »
Steve, blessings on you, your family and those you help.

Since his conversion/baptism in the waters, Kevin Lynch thinks every course is perfect for a hickory tournament. Take that with a grain of salt.

My time at Paramount was tremendous, espesh having the chance to tour it with Brian Chapin, a fine stick. The run of par four holes on the back is memorable and challenging.

I look forward to the continuation of this thread.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Paramount - Urbina and Chapin Score an Eagle! *New Pix* New
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2013, 09:33:32 AM »
Had the pleasure of seeing the finished work at Paramount yesterday and all I can say is wow! My only other visit was in 2011 when Jim Urbina had completed work on the first four holes. The bunkering is fantastic and has really put a premium on the use of angles on the approaches and most notably on the shorter par fours. Additionally a great collection of par three holes with the all world "Reef" as the finisher. Brian Chapin is really doing an outstanding job and it was interesting to listen to his thoughts about the process and how great it was to work with Jim. I had about 110 mile ride back home and had plenty of great stuff to reflect on. I love the place!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 09:36:12 AM by Tim Martin »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back