[Niall C]

Playing North Berwick recently, I was reminded once again how similar the 18th's were at NB and TOC. Both are relatively short par 4's with acres of room up the left, Oscar Bravo down the right and with a large swale guarding the right half of the green. Given that TOC and NB, along with perhaps Musselburgh, were the pre-eminent course back in the late 1800's, its hard to believe that the design of one wasn't influenced by the other.

That being the case, which came first ? I recall that the 18th hole at TOC effectively came into existance as we know it when Old Tom built the new green with the old green having been located just over Granny Clarks Wynd. That would have been about the 1870's (?). Question - did the 18th at NB, as we know it now, already exist before then ?

Supplementary question. Was this the first template hole and has their been any more holes built to this template ?

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Niall the original final (7th) green at North Berwick was played to near the current first tee from what is now the garden of a house opposite Point Garry.

.This map shows the course after the changes of 1887 and appears to have the current location.  The Clubhouse was built for the New Club in 1879 and it would make sense to move it close to the two clubhouses.


So I favour TOC as the earlier, as the changes in 1869 were to new land at the far end adding 3 new holes. However as this now resulted in 9 holes something must have changed on the old ones but I don’t know what.

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/origins.html 


PS did I lend anyone my McPherson book on St Andrews? It can't be found.

[Marty Bonnar]

I've never ever rebounded an approach shot off the R&A, but I have off the NB clubhouse - and quite recently, in fact!!!
Niall, you forgot to mention the fact that there's also a track/road running across the 1st/18th at NB a la Grannie Clarke's.
Coincidence? Design? Enquiring minds need to know...

F.

[Brian_Ewen]

I've never ever rebounded an approach shot off the R&A, but I have off the NB clubhouse - and quite recently, in fact!!!

LoL 

[Niall C]

Martin

The more you think about the more similarities there are. Can't be coincidence, surely ?

Tony

Great link. As an aside, I'm doubtful about the suggestion that Braid was involved in the original 9 holes at the East Links in 1894, although he did the extension in 1906 with Sayers. Also interesting bio on Robert Maxwell who also had a role to play in changes at Muirfield and the East Links. When Colt redesigned Muirfield he accompanied Colt and provided suggestions/advice. What they were and whether Colt took a blind bit of notice, I don't know. He did however try to get Colt the gig to redesign the East Links around about the same time (1923 from memory) but the Council, who owned the course, asked for another quote which they got from MacKenzie and he was subsequently chosen to given the job as he was cheaper. Still trying to find out how much of Mac's design was used.

Niall

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