# 8 on the Enchanted Journey

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Mayhugh,

Could you post the Google aerial of each hole at the beginning of each description.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm surprised that there was so little commentary on the 8th hole, especially with the addition of John Mayhugh's photos.

Makes me wonder if it's worth the effort to continue.

[Josh Tarble]

Pat, in your opinion why has the bottle hole template not been Copied more often?  Seems to me with the addition of a bit of length this would be quite a fearsome hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

Patrick, as someone who has only played National once, I find it hard to add to your wonderful description, but I have read it several times and hope you will continue.

I said to another GCAer the other day, a part of what makes Bottle great is that the the green and green surrounds are in clear view from the tee.  Though it is impossible for the first-time player to have a complete understanding of the hazards near the green when viewed from the tee, the imposing bunkers short of the centre of the green, and the abundance of fairway grass short-left of the green, give the clear indication that an approach from the left is preferred.

In fact, it is the ability to view the green from the tee that made me alter my driving line.  In no uncertain terms, my caddie told me to play right of the string of bunkers.  He told me I could not carry the entire string (and I presume based on the way I hit my drives on the first few holes) he felt the left was too narrow a target.  I agreed.  This discussion took place on the 7th green.

But upon arriving on the 8th tee and looking at the green I felt I HAD to take on the left side.  Now, when not hitting the ball well, it is a very difficult task to pick both line AND distance with a driver.  One unconfident swing later and I am one foot from the face of the second to last bunker, wondering how I will escape the hole with less than 6.


I did not notice much discussion of the placement of the principal's nose bunker.  It seems an odd place to me given the distance golfers were driving the ball in the past, but it certainly makes the driving decision a more compelling one for those able to carry the entire string of bunkers.


Pat, do you see similarities between Bottle at National and the 5th at Friar's Head? If so, would you mind comparing the holes?

[Kyle Harris]

I'm surprised that there was so little commentary on the 8th hole, especially with the addition of John Mayhugh's photos.

Makes me wonder if it's worth the effort to continue.

Authors don't necessarily write books with the purpose of generating discussion.

[jkinney]

JKinney,

The problem I have with your "match play" answer is that the features intended to interface with the golfer become irrelevant when the young modern day golfer plays the course.

The "hotel" bunker complex, the "bottle" bunker complex, the left side fairway bunker on # 18 and other fabulous features, which were intended to influence decision making and play have all been obsoleted.

A few years ago I was playing with a nice young fellow who was the captain of his college golf team.
On # 18, from the fack tee, he flew the left side fairway bunker by 40 yards.
We then went back to the grass  area next to the gate where he hit another great tee shot......right into the left side fairway bunker.

That added distance changed everything.

Now he had to play the hole as CBM intended it to be played.

Today, they're driving #17 and driving it OVER the road on  # [[.

There's something inherently wrong with that.
[/quote

Pat - You've obviously make a strong point about the flat belly driving distance doing away with many of the risk/reward decisions.....We'll just have to wait & see what the players say after the Walker Cup ends...... I have a sense that you are mourning prematurely, however.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm surprised that there was so little commentary on the 8th hole, especially with the addition of John Mayhugh's photos.

Makes me wonder if it's worth the effort to continue.

Authors don't necessarily write books with the purpose of generating discussion.

Kyle,

I know, but, they get paid for their efforts

[jkinney]

Pat - With the insertion of Mayhugh's pictures, you're "Enchanted Journey" is the finest series on any golf course that I've ever seen. Please keep it up. When it's done, it should be a book.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Here's the aerial.

What was the yardage of the hole when built.  What were the carries back in the day?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Here's the aerial.

What was the yardage of the hole when built. 

Championship 386
Regular            366

 What were the carries back in the day?

Let me give you current yardages and current distance based on "Golfplans" yardage book and you can do the interpolations on the aerial.

Championship. 424
Regular.           404

The green is 34 yards deep.
From the back of the last centerline bunker to center 221
From the back of the back right fairway bunker to center 185
From the front of the front right fairway bunker to center 155
From front of front center fairway bunker to center 150
From back of Principle's nose bunkers to center 105
From front of Principle's nose bunkers to center 93

You can calculate the carry distances via subtraction.

Carry last centerline bunker would be 274 according to "Golfplan", but I have my doubts about their yardages off the tee, and, from which tee they're making their calculation.

Hope that helps.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, in your opinion why has the bottle hole template not been Copied more often?  Seems to me with the addition of a bit of length this would be quite a fearsome hole.

In terms of the centerline bunker feature and fairway configuration, I don't understand why it hasn't been copied, with the possible reason being that you need the fairway DZ to be clearly visible from the tee, so elevation differentials would seem to be critical.

As to the entire hole, it requires unique topography to replicate the hole with the massive earthen works at the green end.
The cost to move that much dirt would seem to be prohibitive.

[Bradley Anderson]

Patrick,

I have seen NGLA pin sheets. Have those been given out to you when you play there? If so, does pin position influence your decision to go right or left, and how so.

Do you have a tried and true way of playing the hole no matter what the pin position is?

It seems to me that there are two decisions to make on this hole. Left or right off the tee, and go for the pin or lay up to the left side of the approach for a safe 5.

[Bradley Anderson]

Writings from the 1926 American Golfer

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I have seen NGLA pin sheets. Have those been given out to you when you play there?

Yes

If so, does pin position influence your decision to go right or left, and how so.

Bradley, a good deal of your decision making on the 8th tee is predicated upon how you've been driving the ball for the previous holes, and what the weather/wind is like.  The right side of the fairway is more generous and doesn't require a carry, but, you always have to worry about the centerline bunkers and the right side bunkers.

Hole location isn't going to affect my drive at all, because, chances are, I'm not going to go for the pin, rather, the center of the green.

If I hit the center of the green, I'd probably have a 30 foot putt at the max and more likely a 20 footer or less.

The only time I'd lay up would be if I was in one of the bunkers with the fronting lip/berm impeding routine flight.

When I stand on the tee, I know one thing, I don't want to make a big number in a medal play round.

For me, the ideal drive is left of the centerline bunkers, which requires carry, but rewards you with a flatter lie and a higher elevation.
Wind and air conditions influence that decision.

I know guys who aim at the last centerline bunker and fire away.
The last time I did that I hit it into the last centerline bunker and that's not a place you want to be since those bunkers are configured to accept a rolling ball and stop it against the steep lip/berm.

Do you have a tried and true way of playing the hole no matter what the pin position is?

It's such a dicey drive that hole location rarely becomes a factor.
So much depends upon your ball contact and flight on your drives on the previous holes.
Every time I step on the tee on # 8, I worry, unless, there's a good breeze behind me, which is rare.

It seems to me that there are two decisions to make on this hole.
Left or right off the tee,

There's really three, left, long or right.

and go for the pin or lay up to the left side of the approach for a safe 5.

Going for the pin can be disastrous, especially if the pin is in the front, along the right flank or at the extreme back of the green

Laying up is fraught with danger as well as the recovery to that green is difficult.
I've seen guys play for the safe 5 only to make 7 or worse.

If you have a decent lie, I'd almost rather be in the fronting bunkers if I can't make the green.

Conditions have a lot to do with decision making as well.

When it's fast and firm and the wind is up, play around the green can be quite dangerous.

Walking off with a birdie is great, as is a par and a bogey isn't the end of the world, but, when you score 6 or worse you'll replay your mistake/s ovre and over again, kicking yourself for poor decision making.

What makes the hole difficult, other than the tee shot, is the pitch of the fairway, depth of the bunkers, elevation of the green, the wind and the visuals.  They conspire to intimidate, and they succeed more often than not.

[Josh Tarble]

Thanks for your answer Pat. The topography does seem quite unique but just the general concept seems so strategic I don't understand how it hasn't been at least used for direct inspiration more often.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Josh,

CC of Fairfield has a "Bottle" hole, but, the land is dead flat and the hole bears no resemblance to # 8 at NGLA

The Knoll also has one, but again, it bears no resemblance to # 8 at NGLA

[Mark Saltzman]

Pat, did you see my question re Friar's Head? Any thoughts?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, did you see my question re Friar's Head? Any thoughts?

Mark,

Sorry, I did see it and just forgot to respond.

# 5 at Friars Head and # 8 at NGLA are significantly different holes.
While there's a bunker within the fairway at FH, the drive doesn't present the same dilemma and the approach is night and day different from that at NGLA.

# 5 doesn't instill fear on the tee or when you're in the DZ.  # 8 at NGLA does.
I think of # 5 as a birdie hole, whereas, the following hole, # 6 is a more difficult hole..