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Patrick_Mucci

Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« on: July 09, 2003, 09:18:18 PM »
Mountain Ridge, a Donald Ross Golf course built in 1912 has recently undergone some restoration work under the supervision of Ron Prichard.

Early work included bunkers and tree removal.
More recent work has included new tees and more tree removal.

Mountain Ridge was fortunate enough to have had ample land to lengthen holes without compromising angles of attack or other features.  The golf course is a complete test and fun to play.  A prevailing wind from the west adds to the experience.

Mountain Ridge also has a new superintendent who will probably improve the quality of play.

I'd be surprised if Mountain Ridge doesn't get into the top 100.

Has anyone else played the golf course since the new tees were opened ?

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2003, 09:17:09 AM »
Patrick,

I have never played at Mountain Ridge. There was an article in the last year in Metgolfer comparing the Top 10 Met clubs 10 years ago versus today. Mountain Ridge was something like 7 or 8 on the old list. I had never heard of it so I was surprised to see it on the list. Sounds like it might be something for the Golfweek Classic list guys to go check out.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2003, 10:57:42 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

It has improved since that article and ranking.

Additional work has been approved and the golf course will only get better.

If they continue to remove trees planted by green chairman 20-30 years ago, the course will continue its ascendency to the top 100.

Golf raters should visit there to see a hidden gem.

Matt_Ward

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2003, 01:31:34 PM »
Pat:

I've seen the new tees you mentioned and clearly there has been some improvment at Mountain Ridge. Is the course a top 100 layout? No -- not even close.

In fact -- I would not have the course among my personal top 15 courses in the Garden State. Incidentally, among a poll (2002) of 50 raters used by Jersey Golfer the course did not even crack the top 20. To be fair -- the last poll did not reflect the new changes that have happened since then.

One other thing to keep in mind -- in the countless times I've played Mountain Ridge over the years the desire to keep a good deal of H20 on the turf has really detracted for me the feeling of playing there -- if memory also serves, MR has also had issues with drainage because of several low lying areas sprinkled around the layout. Ross made many of his holes to include some element of the bounce -- however, MR far too many times to my liking is way overwatered and needs to address this. I have heard from some well connected sources that the interest of the members is in how the course looks rather than how it plays. What MR needs to do is get the turf as firm and fast as possible because the game plan is often point-to-point play. Heck, I've even had tee shots that plugged and rolled a scant 3-4 yards after landing in the middle of summer.

If the effort to remove trees is done that should really be a plus to move away from the "corridor effect" you see too often there. I would also add that mixing up the fairway cuts would also be beneficial to move away from the "straight razor" look.

Pat, NJ is blessed with many wondeful layouts, as you well know, but if you're talking about sleepers that get little fanfare and that should receive more I'd recommend the following:

Hollywood / Deal
Essex County CC / West Orange *updated by G. Bahto
Montclair GC (#2 & #4) / West Orange
Forsgate CC / Banks Course / Jamesburg
Atlantic City CC / Northfield *restored by T. Doak

Still, when one starts the talk about top 100 ratings and the such it takes a very, very special place to work that far up the totem pole given the quality layouts that exist throughout the United States. I wish MR well and when the next Jersey Golfer ratings of state courses takes place in 2004 it will be interesting to see what impact the changes have made to the overall assessment of the course. We shall see.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2003, 03:50:45 PM »
I played it maybe 20 years ago in some type of NJ or Met qualifyer and thought it was great.  I've always thought it doesn't get the attention it deserves, probably because it's located in an area that has so many great courses?  

Perhaps Brad could discuss how much of Ross is still left.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2003, 09:50:12 PM »
Matt Ward,

You must not have played Mountain Ridge recently.

There are no "razor" cut fairways.

They hired a new superintendent from Caves Valley.

Despite all the rain we've had this year the course was firmer then in the past.  The drainage problems in the lower portion of the course are being addressed.  I asked if it was possible that capillary action or a wicking effect from the swamp might be a contributing factor.  A friend of mine suggested that they hire a drainage or hydro specialist to identify the source of the drainage problems.

With Ron Prichards ongoing work on the golf course, the bunkers, tree removal and new tees, Mountain Ridge is the real deal and deserving of top 100 consideration.

Wait for the effects of the spring from 20,000 leagues under the sea to evaporate, then go play Mountain Ridge and see for yourself.

Joel Stewart,

Lot's of Donald Ross is left.
Over the years the golf course has been virtually untouched except for imprudent and abundant tree planting which is being eradicated.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2003, 09:51:53 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Matt_Ward

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2003, 11:54:25 AM »
Pat:

Thanks. I'll be sure to check the course out later this year by actually playing it.

Just realize what I said -- the top 100 is a very elite gathering of clubs. It is extremely competitive and you have a better odds grabbing a spot in Harvard Medical School than the top 100.

I don't doubt MR has made substanial improvements but the competition alone in the Garden State is extremely tight -- just look over the names of the "sleepers" I mentioned that very few people outside our area even think about.

MR has a great pedigree in the Ross name but the road for recognition at the national level (top 100 certainly) is a long and difficult climb. Kudos to MR for bringing Ron Prichard and in trying to eliminate a number of trees and to work on the drainage issue.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2003, 02:20:28 PM »
These are the courses you would assume are at risk.  Is Mountain Ridge better than any of the below.  I haven't played them all but in my mind that answer would be yes (to a few).

81. PINE TREE G.C. 7,212 72 57.30
 Boynton Beach, Fla.-- Dick Wilson, Joe Lee (1962)
 
82. SHOREACRES 6,494 72 57.29
 Lake Bluff, Ill.-- Seth Raynor (1921)
 
83. EUGENE C.C. 6,854 72 57.27
 Eugene, Ore.-- Robert Trent Jones (1967)
 
84. MAUNA KEA G. CSE. 7,165 72 57.26
 Kohala Coast, Hawaii-- Robert Trent Jones (1965)
 
85. DOUBLE EAGLE CLUB 7,140 72 57.24
 Galena, Ohio-- Jay Morrish & Tom Weiskopf (1992)
 
86. ATLANTA C.C. 6,960 72 57.19
 Marietta, Ga.-- Willard Byrd (1964)
 
87. VALHALLA G.C. 7,270 72 57.18
 Louisville, Ky.-- Jack Nicklaus (1986)
 
88. THE QUARRY AT LA QUINTA 7,083 72 57.17
 La Quinta, Calif.-- Tom Fazio (1994)
 
89. STANWICH CLUB 7,126 72 57.08
Greenwich, Conn.-- William & David Gordon (1964)
 
90. OLD WARSON C.C. 7,122 71 56.96
 St. Louis-- Robert Trent Jones (1955)

TENTH 10

 Yards Par Points
91. PASATIEMPO G.C. 6,439 70 56.95
 Santa Cruz, Calif.-- Alister Mackenzie (1929)
 
92. GRANDFATHER G. & C.C. 7,030 72 56.82
 Linville, N.C.-- Ellis Maples (1968)
 
93. NCR C.C. (South) 6,849 71 56.81
 Kettering, Ohio-- Dick Wilson (1954)
 
94. GREENVILLE C.C. (Chanticleer) 6,864 72 56.79
 Greenville, S.C.-- Robert Trent Jones (1970)
 
95. BLACK DIAMOND RANCH G.C. (Quarry) 7,159 72 56.70
 Lecanto, Fla.-- Tom Fazio (1988)
 
96. OCEAN FOREST G.C. 7,140 72 56.60
 Sea Island, Ga.-- Rees Jones (1995)
 
97. THE ESTANCIA CLUB 7,146 72 56.58
 Scottsdale-- Tom Fazio (1995)
 
98. SAHALEE C.C. (South/North) 6,955 72 56.48
 Sammanish, Wash.-- Ted Robinson (1969)
 
99. RICH HARVEST LINKS 7,601 72 56.46
 Sugar Grove, Ill.-- Jerry Rich & Greg Martin (1999)
 
100. SYCAMORE HILLS G.C. 7,275 72 56.45
 Fort Wayne, Ind.-- Jack Nicklaus (1989

Matt_Ward

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2003, 06:45:25 PM »
Joel:

I don't doubt that a number of the courses you mentioned from the last GD listing from 80-100 may not be really top 100 courses. Does that automatically mean that Mountain Ridge jumps in? I don't think so. Why? The metro NY / NJ area has a number of outstanding courses that few really appreciate -- I listed several of them and you do have such layouts as Fenway in NY which gets little attention -- although GolfWeek does list it among it's top 100 classic.

I don't doubt that improvements at MR are certainly long overdue. However, it's still quite a leap to then say a course has the goods to be a legitimate top 100 contender. My curiosity is certainly raised to play the course as it has now gone through some extensive tweaking as Pat indicated.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2003, 07:01:03 PM »
Joel Stewart,

If you could list 50 thru 79, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

Matt Ward,

If Hollywood broke into the mid top 100 after its project, I think Mountain Ridge should qualify.

It is now a championship caliber golf course with traditional Donald Ross features.

Matt_Ward

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2003, 07:15:24 PM »
Pat:

I have to withhold judgement concerning MR for now until I play it again -- regarding Hollywood -- only GolfWeek had the course in its top 100 classic until it's latest listing in which the course dropped out altogether. Should Hollywood merit a top 100 placement in an overall listing? That's a tough call -- and I am a big fan of the course. Right now -- I'd say it's borderline because there are only so many spots that can be available. The growth of quality courses throughout the United States is really something many people downplay because they think there region is overwhelmingly the best.

What people don't realize is what I said before -- the top 100 really only has so many "open" positions once you concede a number of spots to the consistent achievers -- NGLA, SH, Cypress, etc, etc.

Pat -- just being among the top ten in Jersey is no small
feat -- just ask the folks who champion Hidden Creek. They actually believe the layout is already at that level. I don't see it that way. One last thing -- can you really say that MR is ahead of Essex County? Metedeconk National (1st & 3rd Nines)? Atlantic City CC? Forsgate CC / Banks Course?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2003, 09:41:26 PM »
Joel:

The metro NY / NJ area has a number of outstanding courses that few really appreciate --

Matt:
Of course I agree with you, in fact there are courses all over the country that are very close to top 100 status, both modern and classical.  Friars Head as an example is a lay down (probably top 50) so something is going to have to give.  I believe Whisper Rock should be top 100, possibly Wild Horse in Nebraska, Dallas National, etc etc.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2003, 11:48:50 PM »
Matt Ward,

I would say that Mountain Ridge is now above the courses you list.

Essex County has a great back nine, but the early and mid holes hold it back.

Metedeconk is pretty to look at, but I've never liked the reverse canting fairways on doglegs and thick fescue so close to play.

Atlantic City is very nice, but depends on the wind as a key ingredient.

Forsgate Banks is wonderful, but lacks the length to make it a championship test.

Mountain Ridge surpases all in the championship category, combined with some very good Ross holes.  It's hard to find a weak hole on the golf course.

Play it from the tips, play ONE ball, and tell me what you think.
Don't forget, the course gets a nice WIND out of the west on most days.

I've got a better idea, why don't we go play it together from the new back tees, perhaps with the President and Head Professional.  Who knows, maybe Ron Prichard will be in town and those in the know can tell you what else is in store for the course.

It is also my understanding that Mountain Ridge is aware of the previous problem of overwatering, and is doing something about it..

TEPaul

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2003, 08:57:00 AM »
God I hate comparative rankings--they're so immaterial most all the time. The important thing with a course like Mountain Ridge is whether or not it's doing the things it takes to make the golf course as good as it can be.

In that vein, I'm very glad to see that discussed on here. The matter of where it stands in relation to other courses in the country or in NJ is basically immaterial in my book. The only reflection on Mountain Ridge should be the question of how interesting and how much fun is it to play and is it doing those things that can make it as good as it can be or isn't it?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2003, 09:21:15 AM »
TEPaul,

The only thing I'll disagree with you about are the osmotic benfits associated with a golf course making improvements while preserving the design integrity of the golf course.

The leading by example concept.

If other golf clubs see that Mountain Ridge is ranked higher, or held in greater esteem due to the work performed there, it can serve as a example/lesson to other clubs, that they too should embark upon restoration programs, tree clearing, etc., etc..to improve their golf course.

Remember, that little has changed at Mountain Ridge, other then tree planting over the years.

Hollywood, unfortunately, removed a great many of the bunkers over the years, and, the membership did not want to restore them.  Mountain Ridge didn't go through substantive changes to the golf course, other then the indescriminate tree planting, so the golf course is closer to the original.

By lengthening the golf course, Mountain Ridge has brought many of the features back into play, features that had been lost due to advances in technology.  If it ever stops raining in the Met area, I'm sure the golf course will begin to play as Ross intended it to.

Give me a call, and we'll go play it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2003, 06:28:13 PM »
Since some seemed to like my summary of the holes at Trump National, I'll try to provide the same for Mountain Ridge.

The first thing you notice about Mountain Ridge as you drive up the driveway is the stately clubhouse, built in 1930.
The clubhouse is simple, functional and elegant.  It sits on top of the property overlooking the golf  course and countryside to the west.

I think the strength of Mountain Ridge lies in its par 4's, although the four par 3's and three Par 5's are good holes.
I believe that the 8th hole, a 465 yard par 4 was once a par 5 from a back tee.  I don't have the exact yardages from the new green tees, but will provide them in the next day or two

# 1 is a great introduction to the golf course with a par 4.
The tee sits high up on the golf course, overlooking the fairway, bunkers and green below.  The prevailing west wind is directly in your face.  The bunkers are staggered and the green is slightly elevated, angled back left to front right, well bunkered on the left, with roll-offs on most of the well sloped and contoured green.  It's a solid 1st and 19th hole.

# 2 plays blind on the tee shot, over a ridge, with the green emerging from the fairway.   Roll-off areas exist and the green has some slopes to it.  A good drive will probably leave a 4-iron or more in.  # 2 heads south

# 3 is a wonderful short hole with a creek running down the right side and a new bunker complex in the drive zone down the left side.  The green is more like a "short" par three green.
Elevated, semi-volcano looking, and well bunkered.  The green has very little slope to it.  I hit a perfect drive, but an iron off the tee is the prudent play.  # 3 plays south

# 4 is a wonderful uphill par 3, probably 230+ from the back tee.  The green is sloped with some contour and is visible from the tee.  It's a large green, well bunkered up the left side.  The fronting slope eats up mis-hit or short shots.
# 4 heads north.

# 5 is a good par 4 that heads slightly uphill with the fairway canting right to left, with some good fairway bunkering staggered on both sides.  The green is pitched toward the golfer with a little right to left slope in some areas.

# 6 is a great par 5, reachable in two, it heads east.
Fairway bunkers are right.  The fairway dips about 120 yards from the green then goes uphill with bunkers cut into that hill which sits about 30 feet above the dipped fairway.  The green is probably another 70 yards from the top of the fairway cross bunkering and the green is a great skyline green with a good deal of cant to it.

#7 is a true dish or punchbowl green par 3, uphill, well bunkered short and you better not be past the pin because the green slopes severely back to front.  # 7 heads north

# 8 is a 465 par 4, from an elevated tee, heading west into the prevailing wind.  There are no driving zone fairway bunkers off the tee, but, there are fairway bunkers toward the green.  This may be a vestige of the hole being a par 5.
The green is sloped with a good deal of contour or back tier.
It's a strong golf hole.

# 9 is a reachable par 5 back uphill, east, toward the clubhouse, with a fairway that slopes right to left.
A new leftside fairway bunker is contemplated in the drive zone, half in the rough and half in the fairway.  The second shot is substantially more uphill.  An old bunker which was located on the right side about 30 yards short of the green, which made it risky to hit a rolling hook into the green no longer exists, and the club should consider restoring that bunker.  It would help this relatively easy par 5.
The green slopes back to front with some minor contour.

# 10 is a good par 4.  The tee sits up on the hill not far from the clubhouse, like # 1 it plays into the prevailing west wind.
The hole is downhill and all of the fairway, bunkering scheme and green are visible.  The green is pitched back to front and balls that hit this green usually hold very well.  The fairway fronting the green encourages running shots into this green.

# 11 is another good long par 4 that heads south, with the tee shot blind over a small ridge.  A long iron or wood will be required into a well bunkered green that rolls off into deep chipping areas right.

# 12 is a short dogleg right par 4 with trees right and a pond short and right of the green.  It heads south. The green is slightly elevated and sloped.  The fir trees that form the corner of the dogleg should probably be removed, since they were planted about 30 years ago.  The club should consider doing the same thing they did on # 3, putting a bunker complex where the trees were.

# 13  is a terrific par 4 that heads north.
A creek crosses the fairway, but is out of reach for all but the John Daly types, and even he might not get there.
The green is slightly elevated, well bunkered, and moderately sloped.  I hit driver, choked down 3-wood and made an 8 footer for my only birdie, and that wasn't from the back tees.

# 14 is a good uphill par 3, probably in the 190 range, which heads north, Big green, almost a skyline green, sloping right to left.

# 15 is a medium length par 4, heading south, dogleg left, from an elevated tee, over a good 1/2 cross bunker in the fairway.  The green is well bunkered on the sides, pitches back to front with moderate slopes.

# 16 is a par 3 over water to a moderately sized green, which pitches back to front.  # 16 heads north.

# 17 is a dogleg par 5 heading northeast to east, with a waterhazard running most of the length of the hole on the left.
A creek comes halfway across the fairway, but really isn't in play for most shots.  The green sits elevated and well bunkered above the fairway with a good back to front slope.

# 18 is a great finishing hole, a dogleg par 4 heading east to southeast, uphill, with OB on the left, and a large tree guarding the right side of the fairway.  The second shot is substantially uphill to a very sloped back to front green.
Miss it short and your ball stays there, go long, and a 3 putt is almost assured.

I hope to have the yardages shortly, and will try to take some pictures when I play there next.   More trees are scheduled to be removed, and hopefully some bunkering that was removed years ago, will be restored.

This is a great golf course.  One that you can play every day and never tire of it.  It is also very challenging to every level of player.

If you get the opportunity to play it, don't pass it up.


Matt_Ward

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2003, 01:04:06 PM »
Pat:

Let me know when we can play MR and I'm game.

By the way -- you need to see the new and improved Essex County since George Bahto got involved. The layout is more than just the back nine as many always think. Yes, the first two holes are less of quality, but George has done some interesting things to a number of holes and I believe it still merits high marks -- is it better than MR? Well, clearly, yes IMHO over the old MR. We shall see with the new MR.

Pat -- the New Jersey golf scene, as you well know, is extremely competitive. MR needs to ascend the ladder of courses in the Garden State BEFORE making the broad assumption that it's a viable and most deserving candidate for a top 100 position. The United States is a VERY big country and plenty of great golf has come on board in the last 20 years -- not counting all fo the classical courses that are also extremely competitive.

In New Jersey I believe there are only three sure fire courses that merit top 100 status -- Pine Valley and Plainfield. Both, in my opinion, are within the top 25 from the courses I've played. The last position would be for Baltusrol / Lower and I would grade that a bit lower than the other two. Is it top 50? No. Is it top 100 -- yes.

Tom Paul:

I understand you frown on course comparisons and simply want to view the standing of a course in and of itself. That's fine but life is about comparisons and contrasts all the time -- that's what keeps the brews flowing at the 19th hole all over clubhouses / locker rooms in the USA. Golf is no different.

TEPaul

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2003, 06:03:28 PM »
"In New Jersey I believe there are only three sure fire courses that merit top 100 status -- Pine Valley and Plainfield. Both, in my opinion, are within the top 25 from the courses I've played."

Matt;

Pine Valley is in the top 25 courses you've played? I would certainly say so since the course has basically been ranked #1 in the world by just about everyone for the last fifteen years or so!! Even in the old days before these magazine rankings I would say it was generally considered the best course in the world!


Matt_Ward

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2003, 10:22:35 AM »
Tom Paul:

You may have missed it but when I was asked by Tom Doak to list my personal top 50 courses I had PV among the top ten I've played.

When I mentioned the top 25 in the post you refer to it was a direct reference to the inclusion of PV A-N-D Plainfield CC as being among the top 25. Clearly, PV is beyond Plainfield and merits the higher position that I mentioned int he first paragraph above.

TEPaul

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2003, 11:52:02 AM »
Matt:

Understood. But if for some reason you think you know of up to nine courses in this world that are better and more interesting in both play and raw architecture than PVGC I'd be more than interested to hear what you think they are, despite the fact I've never been very high on the idea of rankings.

Matt_Ward

Re:Mountain Ridge - Top 100 ?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2003, 01:22:45 PM »
Tom Paul:

Truth be told the finest course I've ever played is Shinnecock Hills. Yes, there's no doubt about the greatness of PV but for my $$ it's the gem in Southampton that takes the top spot. The course is as Tom Doak describes -- "a proven championship venue" and a layout that can challenge all types of players from day to day. Few courses can say such a thing.

When I grouped my top ten listing I didn't specify which course would be at every numerical listing although I do truly believe that SH is the first among equals.