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Patrick_Mucci

# 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« on: October 16, 2012, 08:27:04 PM »
So, you hole out on # 7 and look around.

You discover, unless you've already been in them, the dimensions, depth and nature of the surrounding bunkers as you head back toward the 8th tee.

You have to walk back on the 7th green to get to the 8th tee which is almost in the approach area along the right flank of the 7th fairway.

As you walk back to the 8th tee you see the large, deep bunker flanking the 8th tee that serves as a hazard on # 7.

The 8th tee is elevated above the 7th fairway and deep bunker.

As you walk back to the 8th tee from the 7th green, your back is turned to the 8th hole.
When you finally arrive and turn around to view the hole before you tee your ball up, you're confronted with a puzzling view.

On the 7th tee, you looked into an indistinguishable horizon and asked, "where in the hell do I aim ?"

On the 8th tee you ask yourself the same question, but, for a different reason.

On the 8th tee, nothing in front of you is indistinguishable, in fact it's all brazenly displayed in front of you.

As you look out, you see a berm running perpendicular to the fairway, a berm that's  shielding the bisecting road that divides # 8 and # 11, then you see bunkers, bunkers flanking the left side of the fairway, bunkers flanking the right side of the fairway and shock of shock, a string of bunkers right in the middle of the fairway.

So now, you ask yourself the same question you asked on # 7 tee, "where in the hell do I aim ?"

The right side looks more generous, the left side almost certainly requires a carry over the centerline bunkers and only the longer golfer contemplates carrying the entire string of bunkers.

But, there's more.

Not untypically, there's a breeze, and it's usually in your face, and it's a damp breeze, one that quickly brings golf balls to earth.

You survey what's in front of you again, noting the slope of the two fairways.

Then, and only then do you see beyond the drive zone, further up the fairway, then you look even further up the fairway to the fortress like green perched high above the fairway, guarded by fronting bunkers and a right side of the green that looks as if it plunges into oblivion.

Your focus returns to the DZ and your pending decision.
Sometimes a passing car distracts you.
Sometimes you wonder what would happen if you should hit a line drive or top your tee shot.

Based upon your play so far, you make your decision and hope to execute the drive as planned.

The left side of the fairway is elevated above the right side.
The left side of the fairway is flatter than the right side, which slopes from high left to low right.
The right side bunkers are further below the fairway.
And, the centerline bunkers all have steep faces preventing anything but a lofted shot from escaping.

So, you hit your drive, hoping, hoping that it alights on the fairway.

Should you be lucky enough to avoid the various bunkers, you're now faced with a daunting task, for in the distance and well above you sits the green, perched high in it's defensive mode.

On this green more than others, hole location can ruin your score on this hole and your disposition for the rest of the round.

The elevated green is protected, first by it's elevation, second by the steep slopes, third by the fronting bunker, fourth by the bunkers and mound left of the green, fifth by the extremely steep falloff left and lastly by the runoff at the back of the green, which was formerly a bunker.

Adding to the dilemma is the lie you have, it's a side hill, uphill lie on the right and a less uneven lie on the right.
It would be uncomfortable with a benign green, but, with the fortress like, elevated green, it's even more disconcerting.

The visual of the fortress like green from the fairway, rough or bunkers can be so incredibly intimidating.
Now you're starting to think that bogey isn't such a bad score.

When the hole is cut along the right flank, which is a straight line, along the steep falloff, from the fairway, the flag looks like it's suspended in space, or on a gangplank.

You can't believe your eyes.

You see the steep front slopes of the green, the flagstick and then the woods forming the backround.
You can't see the putting surface, you have nothing framing the hole, just a flag suspended in space.
It's very, very intimidating, even to the seasoned golfer who's played here 100 times.

When the flag is cut in the front, the first time golfer, especially the one using his lazer range finder, is in for a rude awakening.

The front of the green is very subtly sloped, from about 10 yards into the green to the front of the green, you can't really see it, but, you can see the subtlty vis a vis the results as balls with spin land on the front of the green and slowly but surely begin their journey back toward the front of the green, then down the steep slope into the deep fronting bunkers.

Often, golfers who hit their approaches short, which find their way into the fronting bunker are in for another rude awakening when their perceived recovery, with some spin, begins to roll back, off the green and down into the bunker that they just played from.

Approaches hit right find themselves far, far below the green, with no visual to guide them, just the horizon line presented by the right flank of the green.

Approaches hit left face a different fate, they're either in the left side bunkers or the uneven mounding flanking the left side of the green.  As if that isn't bad enough, they're now faced with a shot into oblivion, for if they hit their recovery too hard, they'll fly or roll off the green and down, down the steep slope to an area of rough far below the green.

Approaches hit long face a difficult recovery.

The neat thing about the green is how much hole location influences approach and recovery shots.

For example, if the hole is cut in the front and you go long, even on the green, the recovery or putt, back to the front of the green is very dicey because, should you err on the strong side, you can degreen your ball, having it roll back down the front of the green into the bunker.

Recovery to different hole locations is like playing completely different shots.

If the hole is cut far right, and you're in the left side bunker, you are scared stiff that a thin bunker shot will end up off the green, down the steep slope, leaving you another very difficult recovery.  Leave those shots short and your chances of three putting grow, exponentially.

The putting surface is large, but, unless the hole is cut in the donut center, you're putting very defensively.

The front of the green slopes very subtly toward the front and the mid-point back, slopes to the back.

When the greens are firm and fast, approaches and recoveries and putting is a real challenge with all of those shots dictated by hole location.

On to the 9th tee.
This is a hole, when you hole out, that you often look back and down the fairway and ask yourself, where did you go wrong ?
How did this hole, from start to finish, unnerve you.

It's an incredibly unique hole, unlike any that I've ever played, and in medal play competitions, a hole to be feared, with a par being a great reward.


jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2012, 09:02:54 PM »
Patrick - Great to have you back on the Enchanted Journey....IMO, "Bottle" is one of the most difficult par 4's to hit in two shots, absent a near perfect drive, that I've played.....and you're right that it can set the mood for the rest of one's round.

One other aspect making it so devilish is how the fairway slopes down from about 100 yds. in, adding difficulty to a third shot pitch. Bottle will be a game changing hole in the upcoming Walker Cup, I suspect.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2012, 09:07:47 PM »
The odyssey continues....thank you very much Pat!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2012, 08:02:21 AM »
Tee shot on 8


John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2012, 08:18:58 AM »
It's about time!  Thanks for continuing the journey.  On a course full of great holes, this is one of the best.

I've tried inserting photos into Patrick's text.  All of the words following are his from the original post.

So, you hole out on # 7 and look around.

You discover, unless you've already been in them, the dimensions, depth and nature of the surrounding bunkers as you head back toward the 8th tee.


You have to walk back on the 7th green to get to the 8th tee which is almost in the approach area along the right flank of the 7th fairway.

As you walk back to the 8th tee you see the large, deep bunker flanking the 8th tee that serves as a hazard on # 7.


The 8th tee is elevated above the 7th fairway and deep bunker.

As you walk back to the 8th tee from the 7th green, your back is turned to the 8th hole.
When you finally arrive and turn around to view the hole before you tee your ball up, you're confronted with a puzzling view.

On the 7th tee, you looked into an indistinguishable horizon and asked, "where in the hell do I aim ?"

On the 8th tee you ask yourself the same question, but, for a different reason.

On the 8th tee, nothing in front of you is indistinguishable, in fact it's all brazenly displayed in front of you.


As you look out, you see a berm running perpendicular to the fairway, a berm that's  shielding the bisecting road that divides # 8 and # 11, then you see bunkers, bunkers flanking the left side of the fairway, bunkers flanking the right side of the fairway and shock of shock, a string of bunkers right in the middle of the fairway.


So now, you ask yourself the same question you asked on # 7 tee, "where in the hell do I aim ?"

The right side looks more generous, the left side almost certainly requires a carry over the centerline bunkers and only the longer golfer contemplates carrying the entire string of bunkers.

But, there's more.

Not untypically, there's a breeze, and it's usually in your face, and it's a damp breeze, one that quickly brings golf balls to earth.

You survey what's in front of you again, noting the slope of the two fairways.

Then, and only then do you see beyond the drive zone, further up the fairway, then you look even further up the fairway to the fortress like green perched high above the fairway, guarded by fronting bunkers and a right side of the green that looks as if it plunges into oblivion.

Your focus returns to the DZ and your pending decision.
Sometimes a passing car distracts you.
Sometimes you wonder what would happen if you should hit a line drive or top your tee shot.

Based upon your play so far, you make your decision and hope to execute the drive as planned.

The left side of the fairway is elevated above the right side.
The left side of the fairway is flatter than the right side, which slopes from high left to low right.
The right side bunkers are further below the fairway.
And, the centerline bunkers all have steep faces preventing anything but a lofted shot from escaping.




So, you hit your drive, hoping, hoping that it alights on the fairway.

Should you be lucky enough to avoid the various bunkers, you're now faced with a daunting task, for in the distance and well above you sits the green, perched high in it's defensive mode.




On this green more than others, hole location can ruin your score on this hole and your disposition for the rest of the round.

The elevated green is protected, first by it's elevation, second by the steep slopes, third by the fronting bunker, fourth by the bunkers and mound left of the green, fifth by the extremely steep falloff left and lastly by the runoff at the back of the green, which was formerly a bunker.

Adding to the dilemma is the lie you have, it's a side hill, uphill lie on the right and a less uneven lie on the right.
It would be uncomfortable with a benign green, but, with the fortress like, elevated green, it's even more disconcerting.

The visual of the fortress like green from the fairway, rough or bunkers can be so incredibly intimidating.
Now you're starting to think that bogey isn't such a bad score.

When the hole is cut along the right flank, which is a straight line, along the steep falloff, from the fairway, the flag looks like it's suspended in space, or on a gangplank.

You can't believe your eyes.

You see the steep front slopes of the green, the flagstick and then the woods forming the backround.
You can't see the putting surface, you have nothing framing the hole, just a flag suspended in space.
It's very, very intimidating, even to the seasoned golfer who's played here 100 times.

When the flag is cut in the front, the first time golfer, especially the one using his lazer range finder, is in for a rude awakening.

The front of the green is very subtly sloped, from about 10 yards into the green to the front of the green, you can't really see it, but, you can see the subtlty vis a vis the results as balls with spin land on the front of the green and slowly but surely begin their journey back toward the front of the green, then down the steep slope into the deep fronting bunkers.


Often, golfers who hit their approaches short, which find their way into the fronting bunker are in for another rude awakening when their perceived recovery, with some spin, begins to roll back, off the green and down into the bunker that they just played from.




Approaches hit right find themselves far, far below the green, with no visual to guide them, just the horizon line presented by the right flank of the green.




Approaches hit left face a different fate, they're either in the left side bunkers or the uneven mounding flanking the left side of the green.  As if that isn't bad enough, they're now faced with a shot into oblivion, for if they hit their recovery too hard, they'll fly or roll off the green and down, down the steep slope to an area of rough far below the green.




Approaches hit long face a difficult recovery.

The neat thing about the green is how much hole location influences approach and recovery shots.

For example, if the hole is cut in the front and you go long, even on the green, the recovery or putt, back to the front of the green is very dicey because, should you err on the strong side, you can degreen your ball, having it roll back down the front of the green into the bunker.

Recovery to different hole locations is like playing completely different shots.

If the hole is cut far right, and you're in the left side bunker, you are scared stiff that a thin bunker shot will end up off the green, down the steep slope, leaving you another very difficult recovery.  Leave those shots short and your chances of three putting grow, exponentially.


The putting surface is large, but, unless the hole is cut in the donut center, you're putting very defensively.

The front of the green slopes very subtly toward the front and the mid-point back, slopes to the back.

When the greens are firm and fast, approaches and recoveries and putting is a real challenge with all of those shots dictated by hole location.




On to the 9th tee.
This is a hole, when you hole out, that you often look back and down the fairway and ask yourself, where did you go wrong ?
How did this hole, from start to finish, unnerve you.

It's an incredibly unique hole, unlike any that I've ever played, and in medal play competitions, a hole to be feared, with a par being a great reward.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 10:24:49 AM by John Mayhugh »

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 08:32:06 AM »


Is this quirk?

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 09:15:48 AM »
It's art.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 09:17:28 AM by Jeff Taylor »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2012, 09:27:06 AM »
John,

Your photos, inserted in the text, are perfect and provide the visuals which bring the journey to life.

Thanks.

Might I suggest  that you retrieve the previous seven holes and repeat the process.

Hopefully, I'll get a few more holes in this weekend.

David Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2012, 09:40:28 AM »
John,

Your photos, inserted in the text, are perfect and provide the visuals which bring the journey to life.

Thanks.

Might I suggest  that you retrieve the previous seven holes and repeat the process.

Hopefully, I'll get a few more holes in this weekend.

+1...The photos add so much and are of such high quality. Would love to see your whole collection!

Brad LeClair

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2012, 09:54:07 AM »
John Mayhugh, i believe your 4th photo is actually of #9. 

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 09:56:18 AM »
JKinney references the upcoming Walker Cup in September of '13...like him I'm very much looking forward to watching the matches.  As it relates to the 8th hole, can anyone tell me the distance from the back tee to cover the last centerline bunker?  Will the Walker Cup players simply be able to bomb driver over them?  I understand that the wind velocity and direction dictate what can be done, but I'm nervous that the outrageous distance of these top amateurs will take away from what I feel is one of the greatest challenges of playing NGLA-deciding how to play the tee shot on #8 with respect to a fascinating set of centerline bunkers.  Remember, the USGA likes to use the US Amateur as a test of courses/holes, etc. for upcoming US Opens as the players in the Amateur are longer...

Mike

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 10:07:03 AM »
It's a heck of a place, isn't it?  It's like that lyric from the Paul Simon song about the Mississippi Delta... ;D  I made a sandie out of that Road Hole bunker ;D
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 10:09:29 AM »
John Mayhugh, i believe your 4th photo is actually of #9.  


Brad,

The 4th photo is # 8

There is no tree on or near the 9th tee


Michael,

I think they'll be able to fly the last bunker with benign conditions
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 10:11:57 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 10:24:05 AM »
Might I suggest  that you retrieve the previous seven holes and repeat the process.

Just give me the same amount of time it took to you to get from hole 7 to 8?   ;D


Brad,
You're correct.  Mislabeled photo and I didn't pay enough attention when adding pics this morning.



SteveOgulukian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 10:26:36 AM »
John Mayhugh, i believe your 4th photo is actually of #9. 

Agreed. There is a tree in the 3rd picture which is the one I assume Patrick was referring to. However, the 4th pic is the 9th hole....a sneak peek if you will.

Brad LeClair

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2012, 10:28:37 AM »
John Mayhugh, i believe your 4th photo is actually of #9.  


Brad,

The 4th photo is # 8

There is no tree on or near the 9th tee



Pat, I'm not sure to which tree you are referring but I still believe the photo is of the 9th hole.

#1 - The waste bunkers with the spotted grasses on the right
#2 - The Fairway with no centerline bunkers but a fall off on the left side
#3 - There is no horizontal dirth path (in the foreground) on #8 only the paved road.  

Hopefully that clears it up.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2012, 10:47:25 AM »
John,
   Nice job adding the pix. Did you golf that day or just take pix? :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2012, 11:51:39 AM »
John,
   Nice job adding the pix. Did you golf that day or just take pix? :)

You should be able to tell from the quality of most of the pictures that I work fast. 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2012, 05:37:18 PM »
Great job John and Pat!

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2012, 05:37:56 PM »
I know it looks like a shot from the Hubbell Telescope circa 1988, but...



We played in forty-four degrees and pouring rain!  Best day ever:):)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 05:54:44 PM »
Jay, I think that's a photo of #7.

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 07:49:01 PM »
JKinney references the upcoming Walker Cup in September of '13...like him I'm very much looking forward to watching the matches.  As it relates to the 8th hole, can anyone tell me the distance from the back tee to cover the last centerline bunker?  Will the Walker Cup players simply be able to bomb driver over them?  I understand that the wind velocity and direction dictate what can be done, but I'm nervous that the outrageous distance of these top amateurs will take away from what I feel is one of the greatest challenges of playing NGLA-deciding how to play the tee shot on #8 with respect to a fascinating set of centerline bunkers.  Remember, the USGA likes to use the US Amateur as a test of courses/holes, etc. for upcoming US Opens as the players in the Amateur are longer...

Mike


The Walker Cup long hitters will have the option of carrying the line of fairway bunkers w/o wind against, but the last bunker out, which stands alone, could get them. As to National being too short for these guys, that's largely irrelevant because it's match play and few courses offer as many risk/reward options as National. Lastly, National would never host an Open....that Shinny's purview.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2012, 11:03:20 PM »
JKinney,

The problem I have with your "match play" answer is that the features intended to interface with the golfer become irrelevant when the young modern day golfer plays the course.

The "hotel" bunker complex, the "bottle" bunker complex, the left side fairway bunker on # 18 and other fabulous features, which were intended to influence decision making and play have all been obsoleted.

A few years ago I was playing with a nice young fellow who was the captain of his college golf team.
On # 18, from the fack tee, he flew the left side fairway bunker by 40 yards.
We then went back to the grass  area next to the gate where he hit another great tee shot......right into the left side fairway bunker.

That added distance changed everything.

Now he had to play the hole as CBM intended it to be played.

Today, they're driving #17 and driving it OVER the road on  # [[.

There's something inherently wrong with that.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey New
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2012, 12:50:46 AM »
.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:57:35 PM by astavrides »

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 8 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2012, 11:06:14 AM »
JKinney references the upcoming Walker Cup in September of '13...like him I'm very much looking forward to watching the matches.  As it relates to the 8th hole, can anyone tell me the distance from the back tee to cover the last centerline bunker?  Will the Walker Cup players simply be able to bomb driver over them?  I understand that the wind velocity and direction dictate what can be done, but I'm nervous that the outrageous distance of these top amateurs will take away from what I feel is one of the greatest challenges of playing NGLA-deciding how to play the tee shot on #8 with respect to a fascinating set of centerline bunkers.  Remember, the USGA likes to use the US Amateur as a test of courses/holes, etc. for upcoming US Opens as the players in the Amateur are longer...

Mike


The Walker Cup long hitters will have the option of carrying the line of fairway bunkers w/o wind against, but the last bunker out, which stands alone, could get them. As to National being too short for these guys, that's largely irrelevant because it's match play and few courses offer as many risk/reward options as National. Lastly, National would never host an Open....that Shinny's purview.

JKinney,

Thanks for the response, just to be clear I used the Amateur/Open example to prove that the longest players in the game are the ones who will be playing in the Walker Cup-I understand that the Open is not coming to NGLA.  I wouldn't exactly say the format of match play makes the issue of the length of the course irrelevant.  As Pat says, they will not be sujected to some of the decisions that we have to make while playing NGLA regardless if they are playing match play or have a perforated scorecard in their back pocket-they are simply so long that certain well placed hazards don't come into play.  In benign or downwind situations, they will not step up to the 8th tee and go through the decision making that is presented to the rest of us.

Mike

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