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Nigel Islam

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No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« on: October 15, 2012, 11:20:43 PM »
I took this quote (slightly out of context) from Ran's write up on Blue Mound. I find it to be a profound statement that I totally agree with. So can anyone come up with such a hole?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 11:31:33 PM »
Some might argue # 18 at Atoc

Jason Thurman

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 11:55:52 PM »
It depends on how you classify "mediocre" and "great."

I think there's a case to be made for the first at Lawsonia. But I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call the green great (it's very good and the complex is fantastic), and the hole is probably closer to "solid" than "mediocre."

I'm also not sure you can build a great green without continuity between the playing characteristics of the hole and the green itself. Because of that, and because the word "great" means great and not just good or interesting, I'm not even sure you can build a great green on a mediocre hole.
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Ross Tuddenham

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2012, 05:32:40 AM »
I am pretty sure it would not be classified as a great green(I have never played it) but it may be the line of thinking  needed to beat the challenge of naming a mediocre hole with a great green; 17th at TPC Sawgrass?


If it is not possible to build the combination of great green/mediocre hole(for the reasons listed above by Jason), would we willing to accept that placing a great green at the end of a featureless, flat stretch of land would make a good hole?

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2012, 05:34:00 AM »
Some might say the 18th at St. Andrews is mediocre, but the Valley of Sin makes for a great green.

Tom_Doak

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2012, 05:42:38 AM »
There's the 15th at Piping Rock.  Great green with a snake-like ridge running laterally through it.  But, it's a blind uphill approach, so you can't see the relationship between the hole location and the mound until you get up there.

Generally, I agree with the sentiment, but there are always exceptions to a rule.

Phil McDade

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2012, 07:50:33 AM »
Some might say the 18th at St. Andrews is mediocre, but the Valley of Sin makes for a great green.

The 18th at TOC is one of the great half-par holes I've ever seen. It's hardly mediocre -- not the hardest hole by any means, but it's a terrific hole.

Alex Miller

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2012, 11:19:24 AM »
#7 ANGC

Mike Hendren

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2012, 11:49:37 AM »
Two interpretations:  1) the green alone makes the hole great; or 2) the hole is mediocre notwithstanding a great green.

Augusta National Golf Club:  1, 3, 14.

Tumble Creek:   17

Talking Stick North:  16

The Old Course:  12

The Eden:  1

Plainfield: 1

Blue Mound:  10

Sand Hills: 3

Just getting started.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark McKeever

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2012, 11:59:24 AM »
Thorny Lea GC - Hole 2
Charles River CC - Hole 7
White Manor CC - Hole 13
Mountain Ridge CC - Hole 11

These are first few that came to mind first.

Mark
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 12:54:33 PM by Mark McKeever »
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Mac Plumart

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2012, 12:21:06 PM »
#1 at John A. White golf course.

In fact, the entire course is like that.  Mediocre tee to green (at best) with some kick butt greens.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Chris DeNigris

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2012, 12:33:40 PM »
Looks like there are a lot that fit...the first that came to mind was the 16th at Belvedere.

A rather pedestrian short hole until you climb the hill to a beguiling green complex.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 03:13:07 PM by Chris DeNigris »

Matthew Essig

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2012, 12:47:39 PM »
Some might say the 18th at St. Andrews is mediocre, but the Valley of Sin makes for a great green.

The 18th at TOC is one of the great half-par holes I've ever seen. It's hardly mediocre -- not the hardest hole by any means, but it's a terrific hole.

If it was replicated and built today, would people think it is a mediocre hole?
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Phil McDade

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 01:14:36 PM »
Some might say the 18th at St. Andrews is mediocre, but the Valley of Sin makes for a great green.

The 18th at TOC is one of the great half-par holes I've ever seen. It's hardly mediocre -- not the hardest hole by any means, but it's a terrific hole.

If it was replicated and built today, would people think it is a mediocre hole?

I don't think so. But I'm also of the view that you can't take holes out of the context of where they are in a round, or on a course. The 18th at TOC is the final hole on one of the great back nines in golf -- a nine with a great ebb and flow -- and comes immediately after yet another half-par hole -- the 17th. And it plays nearly the opposite of the 17th -- a wide-open fairway, with a large green, vs. a target-oriented fairway with a tiny green. The 18th has a great feature -- the Valley of Sin -- that impacts two shots (the tee shot, and the second) for most golfers, and a green with a variety of pin positions.

Terry Lavin

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 01:46:34 PM »
I can think of two examples here in Chicagoland that have earned this distinction by being changed from their original configuration.

At Olympia Fields South, number 5 used to be a dogleg right three-wood wedge sort of hole, with a diabolical green with big right to left tilt created from the natural lie of the land.  When the course got rerouted fifty or so years ago, it became a par-3 hole about 160 yards in length.  Let's call it a six-iron into the green.  That is not so bad, as compared to a wedge back in the day, but when the course was renovated by Steve Smyers a few years back, it got even longer so that the usual blue tee is 195 and the tips go back to 235 or thereabouts.  In my judgment, that converts a hole that used to be a great hole into a mediocre hole, even though the original green is and was great.  

Similar story at Flossmoor, the #3 hole, which used to be a par-5 hole.  The creek was in play on the second shot, but it was manageably carried, leaving a player with a 9-iron or wedge into a severely canted right to left green built into a natural plateau.  Now, the hole has been shortened to a par-4, with the creek decidedly in play which often leaves a four-iron or more into that very severe green.  The hole is not nearly as good as it was, because, in my judgment, the hole was not designed for such a long approach shot.  Now it's punitive and not as fun and, therefore, not as great.  Mediocre is probably harsh, but the hole has been lessened, IMHO.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 05:24:40 PM by Terry Lavin »
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Mark McKeever

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 01:50:44 PM »
Good point on number 3 at Flossmoor.  That really is a great green.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Greg Taylor

Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 03:11:49 PM »
5th at Augusta - ordinary hole rescued with a funky green.

rjsimper

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 04:36:54 PM »
1 at Riviera
I love boomerangs.

David_Elvins

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 04:42:57 PM »
Nigel,

Sometime back I started a thread on the worst course with great greens.  The two courses that were mentioned most were Philly country club and Oakland Hills.

So maybe a few holes from these courses qualify. 
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Mark Chaplin

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 04:46:19 PM »
Terry - many at Deal would like to see 16 changed to a par 4 yet it has a classic short par 5 green with wicked slopes in all directions. When hitting a wood chasing a birdie or better one can deal with hitting a hard downslope in the middle of a green, but not when hitting a long iron and trying make par.
Cave Nil Vino

Scott Sander

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 07:40:09 PM »
1 at Riviera
I love boomerangs.


15 at Crooked Stick
Spiral-staircase boomerang

Would love to see how that green would play on a much shorter hole.. 

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 09:34:04 PM »
There are a number of excellent to great Fazio greens, but his courses are devoid of strategy making them not being great holes.

jeffwarne

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2012, 03:42:27 AM »
5th at Augusta - ordinary hole rescued with a funky green.

While I disagree that #5 is an ordinary hole, if one agrees with the premise couldn't they say the same about 14 at Augusta?
or virtually any other hole there?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
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David_Elvins

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2012, 03:58:47 AM »
There are a number of excellent to great Fazio greens, but his courses are devoid of strategy making them not being great holes.

I think that is a good observation, the 16th at Galloway National is one that fits your description perfectly, IMO.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: No one can name a mediocre hole that possesses a great green
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2012, 10:48:29 AM »
There's a lot of courses that might have rudimentary routings, but excellent greens.  All of us have probably said (at some point) "well, at least it had good greens...).  There are some pretty good greens at NYCC, but the hole designs are merely average.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

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