Between Zero and Five Percent

[david h. carroll]

Tim--As I stated, residential first, golf second...you wrote "to support real estate development"...lay out the roads/sewers, then route the golf course and build tennis courts!!

[tonyt]

Those who are spot on are those who advocate that the young are jumping in to carts en masse.

With the CCFAD and other premium yet accessable facilities, young golfers are happier to pay more than twenty years ago. In the early 80s here in Australia, many people would only pay $20-25 for 18 holes if it came with a free fireworks display! Nowadays, it's $30-60 for green fees without blinking (admittedly the course and/or it's conditioning are far superior), so why not just add on the cart fee and take a ride.

At our corporate days, we like to walk. But there are still some in our throng who look at us funny when we grab a buggy or haul the bag over our shoulders. "What, no carts? This course is long/tough/windy. You need carts round here".

I'm about ten years older than most of them, and I always reply that if people all over the planet could walk 36 holes in a day on tough and windy courses for so many years, including myself, then 18 should be a snack.

They agree kind of, nod understandingly, then ask for carts  

[Don_Mahaffey]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The reason people ride is because they want to, IMO. My course is very walkable and we cater to walkers, with pricing, water stations, benches, short walks from greens to tees....and yet over 80% of our golfers take carts. Adam, tell me how that's the owners fault? Folks, it's the culture of American golfers. Special places like Bandon can get away without carts, but if you run the daily fee down the street and you had no carts, hire a good chapter 13 attorney, because you'll need him after about a year.

[A_Clay_Man]

Don- I was refering more to the owner who gives the marching orders on new construction to archies. Not, the guy who is forced, by buying an already planned route.

My first suspicions on this type of slanting was at San Juan Oaks. The obvious lack of thought to the walker was insulting. And now, living here in the land of undulation I see more and more situations where the routing is ridiculous and the only reason I can think of is cart revenue.

I guess it's all relative to geographical regions. But, if the course is walkable and the golfers choose to ride, I say more power to you, and charge them accordingly for their laziness.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Don,

They 'want' to because they were taught the game that way.  They have mega-sized cart bags, drink their beer, have their expensive drivers, etc.  Golf is a social thing for them.

However, many of these people started on courses that required carts and it becomes habit.

Before they retired, my mom and stepdad walked with a pullcart 100% of the time on their home course in my hometown.  Then, they retired to a golf community that requires carts until late in the afternoon, and carts have become so much of a habit to them now, that they now drive their cars to the club parking lot, even though they live on the 10th tee, 150-200 yards from the clubhouse.  They also drove their car to a party last weekend to a neighbor's down the street, about 300 yards away.  THEY DROVE 300 YARDS, EVEN KNOWING THEY WOULD BE DRINKING!  It becomes too much of a habit for people, and my mom was even an aerobics instructor.  It sucks because it's been forced upon them.  True they didn't have to move there, but they are of more moderate means, not having many choices of communities.


As for going bankrupt if the daily fee didn't have cart revenue, how did so many daily fee (non-muni) courses survive all those years before carts were around?  Maybe maintenance costs are higher than they should be (too much watering/keeping things lush, etc.)

[Don_Mahaffey]

Scott,
Although I agree that in many cases carts are forced upon golfers, that's not always the case. Amarillo has two nice muni courses. There's not a lot of other choices in the area if you want to pay less then $30. So, there's a lot of folks who grew up playing golf at these courses and continue to play most of their golf at the muni. Yet, most ride. Why? No one forced them too, the courses are easy to walk...yet they still ride. It's easy to blame management or owners, but we in golf have to listen to our customers, no? I don't know what business your in, but if you have customers and you decide that your now going to tell them what's good for them and no longer try and give them what they want, how long would you be in business? 16 year old kids taking carts is more a reflection of our society then our golf industry, IMO. Call me greedy, but if someone wants a cart, (they have the option to walk), I'm not going to lecture them on their choice. We have a small hardcore group of walkers that never, ever ride. We don't in any way discourage them from walking (other courses in the area do).

I don't think the fact that your parents drive down the street is due to the fact that they have to ride on the course. It seems your trying to make that connection. We have members who go for a jog everyday and yet still ride when they play. I don't understand that, but I also don't try and tell people what's good for them.

I can't remember when there where no golf carts. I wish they had never been invented as I believe we would have a better game without carts. But, at least here in America, they're here to stay. As long as a course lets you walk, why bother worrying about those who choose to ride? If a course wont let you walk, don't give them your $$$. That's the best method I know to change things.

[ChasLawler]

Makes you wonder what the game would be like had carts never been introduced.

Is it too late for the USGA to step up and say the use of carts is illegal for handicap posting purposes?.

[A_Clay_Man]

Don- As you've pointed out before, generalizations are often unfair to those who don't fit the mold.

We should try to trace back this change in attitude. I know in the mid-late eighties, around Chicagoland, I came across two distinct situations. One was at the Golf club of Illinois, before Dye designs bought it, the head pro refused to give us our money back after it started raining and before we ever teed off. The second was at Kemper Lakes. The carts were mandatory and you had to keep them on the path.

Both these instances defied logic. But I know of nothing of this ilk prior to this time.

Does anyone have earlier examples of the shift in the essence?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Don,

There are of course other factors in play.  You never can remember not having carts around, but you were in Arizona previously.  Was that where you grew up or spent much of your early adult years?  Well, AZ is cartball country.  Most courses there built in the past 20+ years are built in the desert with rattlers, extreme heat, stretched out courses/housing/cartball, with "island-hopping" tees-to-fairways-to-green, having to walk way around, etc.

Anyone who grew up in the east or midwest never had carts around before the 80's.

Another factor is who you play with.  Many people will not walk if there partners are riding.  I know several guys at my club who when they are alone will walk, but ALWAYS ride when playing with other members who are cartballers (most of the non-seniors).  I'm "man" enough to politely refuse (often with people I don't know/non-members playing), but then again, I don't play with those members except in tournaments, when we're required to ride on weekend mornings.

Then there are coupons.  Another grating topic to me.  100% of every coupon/special/discount from regular rates at every course I've ever seen are for fees w/carts.  I've never ever seen a coupon/special/discount that was on a walking fee alone.  Sure there are twilight rates for both walking and riding, but never a coupon discounting off those rates for walkers only.  Sure some courses have coupons that also allow walking, but it's for the same price as riding.  Never is there a walking-only coupon.

Cabell,

I agree 100% about cartball rounds.  Why is it that some people can ride 100% of the time and establish a handicap eligible for a USGA event?  Why is the USGA seemingly two-faced about this situation?

[tonyt]

until the mid 1980s, most Australian golfers had never seen carts in the flesh! Resort golf was a very small and scattered thing here until the late 80s.

Correct are those who talk about modern culture. Don't blame most owners/operators. Unless we go to a humble country couirse in a small town, carts are considered the norm for many young golfers.

The major pro football league (Australian Rules) players in Melbourne almost always use carts when they play golf, even if they have the option of walking, and they train five days per week!

It really frustrates me when I try and remind other people my age (33) and older, that for most of our playing lives, we never even knew carts. So why are they such a vital necessity now?!?!

Habit and culture change. Pure and simple.

[Eric Pevoto]

On the other side of the coin, Downingtown CC in PA, the club I worked for before coming over to French Creek has a great contingent of walkers.  This was something we promoted and of which we were proud.  That set is a very loyal one.

In our case, since we did not have a continuous loop of paths (and have no intention of doing so) there was a counter to the increased cart revenue in that maintenance costs would increase.  It would be interesting to know the ratio.

The numbers were roughly 75% walk/25% ride in 1997 when I started there and had fallen to about 65 walk/35 ride when I left in early 2002.  The rise in riders was mainly found in the increase of corporate outings/groups.  

Not sure what's happend in the past two seasons since "business" golf has generally slowed.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Scott,
AZ is definitely cartball country. But, I grew up in an area that can surpass even AZ, Palm Springs. Nobody walks in Palm Springs.
I continue to be amazed when I see a father and his two sons come to play and they all take carts. I grew up playing the only place I know you can walk in the Coachella Valley, Indio muni. My dad never rode and there was no way he was going to buy a cart for his kids.
When I say a daily fee would go broke without carts, what I mean is not enough golfers would play there to support the operation. Forget about cart revenues, just enough golfers in general. Like I said, over 80% of our golfers ride regardless of the weather or any other factor. I think you'll find similar numbers at daily fees across the country. Maybe not that high, but close. Can't explain it other then that's what most people think golf is now.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Don,

Point taken about not having enough players, but I think it'd be an interesting situation if all of a sudden all courses in an area got rid of their carts (in your area, excluding the hot summer) and see what would happen.  Would people stop playing golf?  I think certain fringe-interest players might give it up, but most would learn or re-learn walking.  Keep the cart-level prices minus $5 as fees to keep revenue coming in, and see what happens.  Allow pullcarts for a dollar and sell new ones for wholesale.

On an good note, my club has actually improved the walking situation.  Perhaps it's declining revenues and/or wanting to make the members happier, but the walking policy on weekends has improved immensely.  Members times moved up to 11:00 from 2:00 (noon in daylight wasting time/winter), and guests can walk at 2:00 from none at all.  Guests with walking members can walk after 11.  I've even seen several groups walking who I know teed off before 11:00.  It's been great seeing other walkers around, when before it was a few solitary souls late on weekends.

[Evan Fleisher]

Good discussion here, and this topic is DEFINITELY near and dear to my heart.  I agree with many of the sentiments expressed above...cartball is a choice and is a reflection of our lazy society, IMO.  Everybody wants things fast and easy these days, and a golf cart gives them that (supposedly).

As a die-hard walker, I see just the opposite.  Walking affords me the opportunity to truly experience the courses I play, interact more with my playing partners, and gives me a better feel and rhythm for the round.

Revenue streams for the club/pro and an "everyone else is doing it" mentality has forced this cart burden on us all.  At my home club there are a great number of walkers and many of the older folks use powered club caddy devices to make walking our numerous and steep hills a bit easier...but they are still walking!  Heck, we probably only have about 200 total yards of cart path on the entire 18 holes!  Carts are not really promoted at our club, but walking is in no way discouraged either.

As to the original question, Tim...I'm not sure that cart revenue is really any kind of factor in modern golf course design...and to Adam's point earlier I do think that modern design, with it's potential for a very spread out design, can be linked to an architect's knowledge that carts are readily available to get people to more remote parts of a property affording them the opportunity to place holes in places they would not have considered previously.

[ChasLawler]

There's a dump of a course just off I-64 about 35 miles west of Richmond in Hadensville named Royal Virginia Golf Club. It gets literally about 20 rounds per day.

I stopped in there a few months ago around 5:30pm to sneak in 9 holes on a drive home from Charlottesville. The pro told me it would be $15 including cart. I said "wow" - how much to walk. He said they didn't have a rate for walkers. I told him that was fine, and that I'd be happy to pay the cart fee and walk. He told me walking isn't allowed at any time.

I asked him why, citing it was obvious a walker certainly wasn't going to slow anyone down if that was the reason. The pro kind of shrugged his shoulders and said "because walking is not the kind of image the owners want to portray here". He apologized and said he was just following orders.

I said thanks but no thanks and got back on the road. It wasn't even worth the old cart breaking down on the first tee trick.

I've sensed it at many golf courses, but that's the first time someone actually came out and said that walking was negatively looked down upon at their course.