[David Bickford]

This is my first post on the site, and I'm excited to be a part of this.  I've played Sleepy a few times before and after the restoration, and a few things come to mind.  The first is that it is one of the hilliest walks out there.  Those caddies get a work-out.  I don't know of a Macdonald/Raynor course that has more severe topography, except maybe Dedham in Massachusetts.  The tree removal really enhanced the course.  The first tee shot is tight, so I agree that the trees dividing #1 and #18 should go or be reduced.  It's also more of a 3-wood or long iron shot these days.  #10 is definitely out of place with the rest of the course, but I like having a little water hazard out there.  I think #17 and #18 are weak finishing holes for such a strong course.  For me, the excitement really ends after #16.  And finally, Macdonald was working on Sleepy and Piping Rock at around the same time, and I can't imagine having two more different plots of land.  I wonder how much of a challenge that was for him.  It's also too bad he couldn't fit in a Biarritz.

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

I am pretty sure that there was a Biarritz built which eventually was incorporated into the executive course.  Someone else may have the details, but I'm pretty sure it was taken out of the routing when Tillinghast did his work.

Just to clarify my statement on 6, I actually really like the hole as it is.  My thoughts on lengthening were merely an exercise in figuring out how you could make the hole play longer without doing a ton of work.  I was thinking in terms of how the hole would play with a carry of 260-280 on a more direct line. 

One of the keys to 6 is the angle from the current teeing area.  The slight dogleg and the rough and woods area on the left side of the upper fairway do put a demand on the player who hits it far enough to clear the hill, and creates the risk reward nature of the shot.  Opening up the right side seems like it would make this an easier shot with the possibility of the real bombers taking a highly agressive line that eliminates the risk of going left.  As the hole stands now, just about every player has to make a choice.  The length of the carry is just enough to make the medium to short hitter question their ability to get to the high side, and the issues presented by a miss to the left makes the longer hitter at least consider the prudent play, knowing that the reward is getting home in two if they are able to execute the carry and find the fairway.

[Brian Finn]

David:

I am pretty sure that there was a Biarritz built which eventually was incorporated into the executive course.  Someone else may have the details, but I'm pretty sure it was taken out of the routing when Tillinghast did his work.

There is definitely a Biarritz on the lower course, which was part of the original CBM course. It is still there, and the green seems (to my relatively untrained eye) pretty much untouched.  A member with whom I once played at Sleepy gave me a very nice description of the changes to routing and holes when Tillinghast got involved. Unfortunately, I can't recall the specifics regarding the Biarritz. 

I imagine next time Mr. Bahto logs in, he could provide details.  Perhaps there is even an old thread that covers it. 

[Sven Nilsen]

The Biarritz is No. 8 in the top right hand corner of this routing (which shows the 27 holes post Tillie):



Interesting to note that the 18 hole course started with today's 18th as the first and then proceeded with the current routing and ending on 17.

This old thread has some feedback from George Bahto on Mac's par-3's at Sleepy Hollow and includes an old photo of the Biarritz:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52865.0.html

[Josh Stevens]

Wow you dont muck about with your clubhouses up there do you?  Is it possible to make it any bigger or more ostentatious?

[corey miller]

The clubhouse is a Stanford White building constructed for the Vanderbilt Family.  It preceded the golf course.  I am of the mind that much like the Macdonald course, the clubhouse should be preserved and maintained properly.

Your angst in regards to clubs being ostentatious is better directed at many of the clubs built in the last 50 years or those who have done substantial remodels of the non-golf areas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wow you dont muck about with your clubhouses up there do you?  Is it possible to make it any bigger or more ostentatious?

Josh,

The clubhouse is far from ostentatious.

It's an elegant old world estate, tastefully designed, built and decorated.

[Josh Stevens]

Uuum no.  Sunningdale is classy, that is Versailles1

[David Bickford]

Thank you for sharing about the Biarritz.  I did not know that, and I have never played the nine holes.  My hosts have little knowledge of their own club's history, which is so frustrating!  To play at a place like that and not appreciate the design.  I digress.

[David Royer]

I had the good fortune to play Sleepy Holow this summer.  The first thing is the quality of the renovation and health of the course.  The redan is as fun as it gets.  Play left and watch the ball track to the hole.  The 3 par across the lake is a very fair and especially scenic.  Some of the best 3's you'll play in a single round.  The first thing that comes to mind on the tee at 18 is how much it reminds you of Riveria.  I left Sleepy Hollow wondering why it doesn't get more recognition as a really good golf course.  It is hilly but plays exceeding fair with many enjoyable holes.  The clubhouse is remarkable.  The stainglass in the lobby is simply beautiful. Imported from Italy I believe. 

[George_Bahto]

Thank you all who recently played and enjoyed Sleepy Hollow -

here is a bit of background information about the incredible "clubhouse"

   "Early in the 20th century, a group of men of great wealth and stature, led by William Rockefeller (brother to John D. of Standard Oil fame), Cornelius Vanderbilt and John Jacob Astor envisioned a world class country club on high land overlooking the scenic Hudson River. Rockefeller and International Banker Franklin A. Vanderlip purchased the 338-acre estate of pronounced grandeur belonging to Margaret Louisa Shepard (Cornelius Vanderbilt’s granddaughter - daughter of Wm. H. Vanderbilt) widow of Col. Elliott Fitch Shepard.
   The property, originally called Woodlea, was the once the country estate of Butler Wright, the family home was located not far from today’s exit gate of the property. The original Butler home was at one time used as the clubhouse for the early course.
   The Butler-owned Woodlea was purchased by Colonel Elliot F. Shepard, founder of the New York Bar Association, and in 1893 Shepard and Louisa hired famed architect Stanford White (of McKim, Meade, and White) to design a palatial home situated high in the hill overlooking the Hudson River. It seems the Colonel never saw the home completed. Louisa Vanderbilt Shepard had a trust fund of some $12,000,000 left to her by her father. Money was never an issue. The huge Italian Renaissance manor home not only overlooked the Hudson with the Palisades beyond, but the marvelous gardens design and built by Frederick Law Olmsted. Stanny White’s building, also called Woodlea, featured high, intricate cornice work ceilings, hand carved mahogany panels patterned, a ballroom, a library the size of a house, and a dining room capable of seating 200. The graceful, winding stairway flows down to the main entrance appropriate for the Debutante Balls held the club since 1948.
   In 1910 the Woodlea estate was purchased by William Rockefeller and Frank Vanderlip, who in May of 1911, sold the estate to the organizers of what was to be The Sleepy Hollow Country Club.
   A partial list of the first 27 Directors included; J. J Astor, Vanderlip, James Colgate, Percy and William Rockefeller, E. J. Berwind, Cornelius Vanderbilt, A. O. Choate, Oliver Harriman, James Stillman, V. E. Macy.

         “Woodlea” was to be their clubhouse! - the cost when built: between one           and one-and-a-half million dollars!”

[Patrick_Mucci]

Uuum no.  Sunningdale is classy, that is Versailles1

Josh,

Is your opinion based upon first hand knowledge obtained vis a vis your tour of the property and building ?

The pictures don't do it justice.

It's an elegant clubhouse, inside and out.

[George_Bahto]

[Dan Herrmann]

I follow Eric Smith on Facebook, and he wrote about his visit to Sleepy Hollow - added a few pictures too.

I was blown away.  What an amazing looking golf course!!!  Folks that  belong there or play there are very lucky indeed.

PS - I love the rustic-looking foot bridges.  They remind me of the wooden bridges on the Needles Highway near Mt. Rushmore (I mean this as a big time compliment)

[Ian Larson]

While doing renovation work down the road at Greenwich Country Club I was able to walk the course on an empty winter's Sunday a few months ago. The Short, Redan, Skyline green, Principals Nose, Devil's Asshole and the footbridges just blew me away. Those members are indeed very lucky.

[Eric Smith]

PS - I love the rustic-looking foot bridges.  They remind me of the wooden bridges on the Needles Highway near Mt. Rushmore (I mean this as a big time compliment)

 

[JLahrman]

Thanks for bringing up these photos again.

The whole course just looks badass.

[Ronald Montesano]

Just found this after spending yesterday afternoon shooting Sleepy Hollow. It doesn't say much for my architectural acumen when, after 5000 posts on this forum, I didn't realize I was transitioning from CBM holes to Tilly holes. It also doesn't say much when I had no idea that Hanse and Bahto had changed the 12th (having never seen it prior, I had no basis for comparison.)

I will say this about the 6th, since I didn't play the course: it seems to me that a short par five needs to defend itself from the average player in precisely the way it does. There is no such animal as a great golfer who won't make up a shot somewhere. For example, take Mark Saltzman. He should make that 235 yard carry, even uphill, unless he is into the wind. If he recognizes that all of nature conspires against him, he will take the bunker out of play and play left...why? He is an excellent fairway metal player and a very good wedge player. He also putts lights out. Why should he challenge the bunker. In contrast, take a long basher who may not be possessed of the skills of the Saltz. The basher needs to carry the bunker to set up a second shot into the green, knowing that some shot of Mark will even the score despite being outdriven.

The Biarritz in its current iteration, as well as the photo from George (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52865.25.html) is hard to envision. There is really no place for the front par of the green, followed by the dip. The whole thing drops down along the same slope as current #17, albeit at a different angle. It's also called "#2" in the Bahto photo, which doesn't jibe with what Sven writes, unless it already was a part of the short course.

The extra nine holes and the various iterations/sell-offs, etc. make the history of this club intricate. My suspicion is that a few days of quiet study in the archives would be of great benefit to future thread contributions. I plan to get my photos up somewhere and I'll post a link when done.

[Mark Saltzman]

Ron, what happened to shooting Fenway?

While I appreciate your confidence in me, that 235 yard carry was too much for me! A well struck drive landed right in the face of that slope.

Sorry to hear the 'extra nine' was disappointing. I was annoyed I missed it but now you're making me not feel so bad about it!

[John Percival]

What does everyone think of the tee shot at the 6th? Awkward? Interesting?

I think it works for those that can make the carry, but for those unable to carry their tee ball 235 yards, uphill, does it work?

Mark,
Played there right after the Reno 4 or 5 yrs ago. The tee shot at 6 is simple if played to the lower fwy and long/difficult/heroic if played to the upper. The awkward comes on the second if played from the lower fwy. The Principal Nose bkr is blind from that lower fwy and perhaps an unfair obstacle.
Were the tee option not one of length, but accuracy, then the PN bkr would be more justified. Would like the hole better if shorter (tees more fwd) and a 4 par, but there are no holes to compensate to bring par back to 70.
Having said all that, enjoyed the track very much. Holes 2,3,5,7,11,14 and 18 stood out. A course of character and intrigue.

[Sean_A]

All I can say is Wow. That place looks amazing. Added to the list!

Si!  I hadn't paid much attention to this course previously, but Mark's excellent photos really shine a light on the magnificent scale of the course. 

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I shot Fenway, too. I had, as I told a few broze here in PM, an amazing 18-hour photorgasm: Shinny and Southie on Thursday evening and Fenway and Sleepy on Friday.

[Paul Jones]

What a great course and rarely talked about.  Thanks for posting Mark and Ronald.  I am just an intrigued with history and clubhouse as I am with the course.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Thank you all who recently played and enjoyed Sleepy Hollow -

here is a bit of background information about the incredible "clubhouse"

   "Early in the 20th century, a group of men of great wealth and stature, led by William Rockefeller (brother to John D. of Standard Oil fame), Cornelius Vanderbilt and John Jacob Astor envisioned a world class country club on high land overlooking the scenic Hudson River. Rockefeller and International Banker Franklin A. Vanderlip purchased the 338-acre estate of pronounced grandeur belonging to Margaret Louisa Shepard (Cornelius Vanderbilt’s granddaughter - daughter of Wm. H. Vanderbilt) widow of Col. Elliott Fitch Shepard.
   The property, originally called Woodlea, was the once the country estate of Butler Wright, the family home was located not far from today’s exit gate of the property. The original Butler home was at one time used as the clubhouse for the early course.
   The Butler-owned Woodlea was purchased by Colonel Elliot F. Shepard, founder of the New York Bar Association, and in 1893 Shepard and Louisa hired famed architect Stanford White (of McKim, Meade, and White) to design a palatial home situated high in the hill overlooking the Hudson River. It seems the Colonel never saw the home completed. Louisa Vanderbilt Shepard had a trust fund of some $12,000,000 left to her by her father. Money was never an issue. The huge Italian Renaissance manor home not only overlooked the Hudson with the Palisades beyond, but the marvelous gardens design and built by Frederick Law Olmsted. Stanny White’s building, also called Woodlea, featured high, intricate cornice work ceilings, hand carved mahogany panels patterned, a ballroom, a library the size of a house, and a dining room capable of seating 200. The graceful, winding stairway flows down to the main entrance appropriate for the Debutante Balls held the club since 1948.
   In 1910 the Woodlea estate was purchased by William Rockefeller and Frank Vanderlip, who in May of 1911, sold the estate to the organizers of what was to be The Sleepy Hollow Country Club.
   A partial list of the first 27 Directors included; J. J Astor, Vanderlip, James Colgate, Percy and William Rockefeller, E. J. Berwind, Cornelius Vanderbilt, A. O. Choate, Oliver Harriman, James Stillman, V. E. Macy.

         “Woodlea” was to be their clubhouse! - the cost when built: between one           and one-and-a-half million dollars!”

On another architecture-related site that i squander away my hours, I found this tour of the "clubhouse" today:  http://bigoldhouses.blogspot.com/

W

[Mark McKeever]

Wayne, thats an awesome site.  I'm obsessed with big old houses!   I added that one to my favorites!

MM

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