[Mike_Young]

Let me ask you this would you rather have a golf lesson from a PGA pro or just a teacher? 

Here in the UK it would be a PGA for me. Firstly he has had the training and therefor interest and commitment to qualify showing a love of the game and not just in it for the money. Secondly, you know he is insured should anything go wrong.

I do however fear it may go the same way here as in the USA

Jon

Jon,
So you would not use Butch Harmon, David Ledbetter etc or other golf professionals who were not PGA members?

There are plenty of good PGA member golf professionals.  But they are not good because of the PGA.  They are good because of themselves and they just happen to be members.  And they know it....

Joel,
And how many of those PGM students do you think will eventually become PGA pros or even members?  Like so many curriculums at our various colleges, the PGM program is there to sell tuition not to prepare for jobs.  College is a business in so many cases IMHO.  And then you have some like the Golf Profesional college in Myrtle Beach that are just pure "malarchey"...

[Gary Slatter]

I am a third generation professional.  My dad was a two term PGA section president, and very active
in all the sections he was a member of.
Years ago, the PGA, started moving towards more education in the "business" of golf for its members.
There was a push towards management as bottom line numbers became more and more the goal of a club.
In making the PGA members more versatile as managers, it was supposed to enhance the profile of pros and open
more management opportunities.
In my biased opinion, the PGA forgot one thing....GOLF.  As a kid growing up in New Jersey,
there was a lot of pride in having a head pro who played well, could teach, and was able to effectively help members
have a great day at the club.
In many cases, being a good player or teacher now, means you are spending too much time on your game or the range.  Not spending
enough time answering emails, completing monthly P&Ls, and making sure that the outside tournaments are booked.
Of course, as an association, the pGA has done a great job of charging a ton for kids to pass the training program,
all while making poverty wages waiting for the dream job to come.  Of course those jobs are slowly disappearing, just send in your dues.

Well said Pat, same in Canada, not as much in UK.   The Supers have done a good job increasing their demand to clubs while pros have gradually been losing carts, shops, storage, range revenue, etc.  Many don't teach, which costs them sales and image.  And the playablility fees have become a cash-cow, like the Ryder Cup profits.

[Jon Wiggett]

Let me ask you this would you rather have a golf lesson from a PGA pro or just a teacher?  

Here in the UK it would be a PGA for me. Firstly he has had the training and therefor interest and commitment to qualify showing a love of the game and not just in it for the money. Secondly, you know he is insured should anything go wrong.

I do however fear it may go the same way here as in the USA

Jon

Jon,
So you would not use Butch Harmon, David Ledbetter etc or other golf professionals who were not PGA members?

There are plenty of good PGA member golf professionals.  But they are not good because of the PGA.  They are good because of themselves and they just happen to be members.  And they know it....

Mike,

David Leadbetter is a member of the PGA but don't know if Butch Harmon is either a PGA or USPGA member though. However I was talking firstly about the UK and also I doubt that either of your examples are bookable by the average person on the street with no knowledge of who to approach. I will refer you back to both my points which are valid both for using a PGA pro and against using a non PGA qualified person.

Whilst not having the PGA qualification does not mean that you can not be a great teacher I would only use a non qualified person if I knew about them in the first place. I have a good mate that is a whizz with electrics and does a great job but is not a qualified electrician. This does not mean that I would use anyone off the street who claimed to do electrics. I would use a qualified and insured electrician wouldn't you.

Jon

[Kris Shreiner]

Mike,

Great thread!

Pat Burke,

Bang on!



Sadly, those young PGM candidates Joel mentions have very poor odds of landing a satisfying job that will keep them in golf as a PGA pro.
The university PGM programs are basically a feeder system for a pipe dream. Younger, quality head and 1st assistant professionals in their late 20's and early 30's are having an exceedingly difficult time even finding a decent paying position in the industry. What realistic chance do these freshly-minted youngsters have of finding something worth their $100k and UP college educations.

The PGA top brass knock down handsome dough for what? To continue a broken system that basically fosters penal servitude as a lowly assistant for peanuts with the longshot hope they might get a HP job down the road making 45k for a 70 hour week. The days of a 80K plus and a house on property are down to the chosen few.

Where are the strident efforts to improve the job opportunities for these folks? Why not create an international language track component, funded by the PGA and other partners, having internships(which can lead to solid jobs) at home and abroad, to help language-challenged immigrants in this country find the game, and also bring the game to emerging golf nations such as China and South American countries.

Halve the executive salaries of those making $750K plus at the PGA and you're there. Despite the dire circumstances for the PGA profession, there's plenty of excess present and it's yet another indicator of the bloated top having a TOTAL disconnect with reality. But personal enrichment and the sham must go on!

The game can do much better. When will it?

Cheers,
Kris

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Kris,

I agree with much of your post. Here in Europe the various associations are pushing for a standard qualification and much has been done to improve the lot of assistants but there is a long way to go.

I think it would be important to get the terminology correct and understand that there is a world outside the USA. The PGA is based in Britain. The USA association is the USPGA. I think it is important to state clearly which one you mean as they are quite separate bodies. Having said that the PGA is showing signs of going down the same road as the USPGA

Jon

[Phil McDade]

The four muni courses in Madison WI just canned their four PGA pros, ostensibly as a way to grab their peripheral income (carts, pro shop sales, booze) to invest in clubhouse improvements:

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/madison-not-renewing-contracts-with-four-golf-course-pros/article_4c4f8660-1728-11e2-9684-0019bb2963f4.html

One of these guys, in all candor, won't be missed. But I know the guy at my neighborhood course somewhat well, and he's been a real strong booster and organizer of junior golf programs at his 9-hole course. A loss, no doubt.

I also have to say: I've always liked the somewhat shabby nature of the Madison muni clubhouses. To me it was always a sign the city wasn't wasting money on non-golf things, and utilizing what it had on the courses.

[Jon Wiggett]

Phil,

another case of an accountant politician looking to much at a theoretical rather than a practical case I fear. In most cases like this it is found that the wages cost more money and the employees generate less income. Brace yourself for them downsizing in a couple of years due to lack of turnover.

Jon

[Phil McDade]

Jon:

One of the things that's putting pressure on the parks budget in Madison (and the muni golf courses are part of the parks department) is that -- for a lot of reasons I won't get into here (and are probably best reserved for that other thread now on its 7th or 8th page ) -- Madison wages for seasonal employees, or any city employees for that matter, tend to be higher than neighboring seasonal employees and neighboring municipalities. Over the long term, that puts pressure on budgets to improve things (capital costs) because lots of money is going toward labor costs. The muni courses are what they are -- nothing great, but not bad, either -- and this area is pretty much built out as far as golfing, after a great deal of building in the '80s and '90s. So the financial stress on the Madison muni's, I think, is probably legitimate -- I haven't seen the books, but I'm guessing they have been experiencing several years of flat growth in terms of rounds.

The worst-case scenario would be for the city to try to "upgrade" the courses into something they are not -- the Country Club for a Day (CCFAD) model. That's just not going to fly, because there are reasonable alternatives within an easy drive to experience that. My worry is that with long-standing pros now gone, important things to grow your clientele -- particularly some well-run juniors programs -- will fall by the wayside. And at least a couple of the courses really go out of their way to cater to local high schools through allowing teams to practice and host meets there (probably at something less than break-even) -- to me, a real key part of encouraging younger golfers to take up and stay in the game.

I tend to be with you, in that I'm not sure of the long-term thinking on this.

[Mike_Young]

Some professions will always be better served with apprenticeships instead of so-called degree programs.  Golf professional is one of those. 
The PGA is no different than a 1000 other associations that have created a life of their own.  Go to the Trade show trade show and watch.  The object is to persuade an industry that the association controls the industry when in fact it is just a parasite with no skin in the game.  The free enterprise system works and if a true need is being served then the PGA professional will be just fine; if not then you will see what we see now.  Most of the good jobs have always been the private club jobs unless you were a PGA member who owned your own club.  So the big problem is the drop in private club members from 7 mill in 1995 to 2.1 mill today.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

While I am not encouraged by the trend it appears like the market is shaping and determining this statistic.

In the past you have expressed concerns that the superintendents association has way too much influence and control over the American golf culture.

So my question is: if the PGA with all its cachet is unable to effect the market on this most basic level of preserving jobs, how is it that the superintendent's association is able to dictate budgets and standards of conditioning?

And I am sincere in asking this - this is not a gotcha question to put you on the spot.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

While I am not encouraged by the trend it appears like the market is shaping and determining this statistic.

In the past you have expressed concerns that the superintendents association has way too much influence and control over the American golf culture.

So my question is: if the PGA with all its cachet is unable to effect the market on this most basic level of preserving jobs, how is it that the superintendent's association is able to dictate budgets and standards of conditioning?

And I am sincere in asking this - this is not a gotcha question to put you on the spot.

Brad,
I don't think I have ever said that the GCSAA has way too much influence over control of American golf culture.  That would be giving them too much credit for something they would not deserve.  I think I may have said something like they would like to have much control over such.  I have never thought they could dictate budgets or conditioning.  They would like to think they could.  AND they would like to make all vendors think they could persuade as such. 
Both associations spend most of their time making sure they justify their existence to vendors, universities and clubs.  They make sure their executives are always noted in the "Most Important People in Golf" list and as of today I can still not figure how they rate such.  These guys do nothing but contribute to the excess of the business of golf and in doing so hurt the game.  The trade shows are there for the associations much more so than for the members.  THEY ARE THEIR OWN INDUSTRY.  Every supt could leave the GCSAA tomorrow and it would not affect the supply of supts or the quality.  Lot of good guys in both groups but they know what I mean even if they have to take up for it...JMO. 

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I'll start the guessing a PGA professional?

Dan

good guess....
Yep .  Less than 6000 golf courses now have a PGA pro.  28000 members of an organization that has no skin in the game and less and less jobs. 

Wow that is an unbelievable statistic... 

I am a member of two clubs both with PGA Professionals, I dont know of any changes here in Greenville that I have heard of.  There are a couple lower end of the food chain muni or public courses that didnt have a PGA pro to begin with, but I have not specifically heard of any changing their policy on that.  Maybe it has happened and I just dont know about it.

I wonder what the mix is of daily fee vs. private that make up that number.

Interesting and as you said quite concerning...

[Jon Wiggett]

Some professions will always be better served with apprenticeships instead of so-called degree programs.  Golf professional is one of those. 

Mike,

I agree with your statement above yet just earlier you were arguing that no education was needed. Flip, flop, flip, flop

Jon

[Mike_Young]

Some professions will always be better served with apprenticeships instead of so-called degree programs.  Golf professional is one of those. 

Mike,

I agree with your statement above yet just earlier you were arguing that no education was needed. Flip, flop, flip, flop

Jon

Should I say no "formal" education is needed.  Sadly most in this country do not consider apprenticeships education.  It was not a flip flop...

[Tom_Doak]

Some professions will always be better served with apprenticeships instead of so-called degree programs.  Golf professional is one of those. 

Golf course architecture is probably another such profession, but that's a separate topic.

[David Whitmer]

I was in the business for nine full years before I got out. My last seven years were spent at an upscale private club outside of Cincinnati. Some of us on the golf staff were PGA Professionals, some were working toward that distinction, and some chose not to pursue it. At our club it did not matter one bit...not one member cared if we were certified PGA Professionals.

Low pay, micromanagement, and long hours led to my decision to get out. I had to be a part of two separate staff meetings each week, which took about 3 hours each meeting. Did I, as a golf pro, really need to know what new dishes the chef was thinking about preparing? Did I need to know that the kids' pool party on Friday night would feature a clown making balloon animals? Did our chef need to know that I was going to put a dozen Titleists on sale? Covering the big events where every aspect of the club was affected, like a member-guest, was one thing. Wasting every department head's time twice a week was something else.

Most of the members were great, but as many of us know there is simply no pleasing some people (and that goes for every walk of life, I realize that). At some point, I was criticized by members for:

          1.   Not being behind the pro shop counter enough
          2.   Not teaching enough
          3.   Not being on the first tee to watch members tee off enough
          4.   Not playing with the members enough
          5.   Not playing in Monday pro-ams enough
          6.   Not being around the women's Tuesday evening league enough
          7.   Not being around the women's Wednesday morning league enough

The list went on and on. Funny thing was, I never got criticized for being away from my family too much. My members wanted me there whenever they were there.

The job had many, many positives, but I just decided I wanted to find something where I could make more and spend more time with my family. Thankfully I found that. It seemed to me the job was best suited to a single person. But, my best friend is married and is a head professional, so I know it can be done harmoniously. It just couldn't be done by me, I suppose.

I am not a huge fan of the PGA of America, for a multitude of reasons. Many of them have already been mentioned here.

[Mike_Young]

Some professions will always be better served with apprenticeships instead of so-called degree programs.  Golf professional is one of those. 

Golf course architecture is probably another such profession, but that's a separate topic.

Yes it is....   It would be a good topic.

[Mike_Young]

I was in the business for nine full years before I got out. My last seven years were spent at an upscale private club outside of Cincinnati. Some of us on the golf staff were PGA Professionals, some were working toward that distinction, and some chose not to pursue it. At our club it did not matter one bit...not one member cared if we were certified PGA Professionals.

Low pay, micromanagement, and long hours led to my decision to get out. I had to be a part of two separate staff meetings each week, which took about 3 hours each meeting. Did I, as a golf pro, really need to know what new dishes the chef was thinking about preparing? Did I need to know that the kids' pool party on Friday night would feature a clown making balloon animals? Did our chef need to know that I was going to put a dozen Titleists on sale? Covering the big events where every aspect of the club was affected, like a member-guest, was one thing. Wasting every department head's time twice a week was something else.

Most of the members were great, but as many of us know there is simply no pleasing some people (and that goes for every walk of life, I realize that). At some point, I was criticized by members for:

          1.   Not being behind the pro shop counter enough
          2.   Not teaching enough
          3.   Not being on the first tee to watch members tee off enough
          4.   Not playing with the members enough
          5.   Not playing in Monday pro-ams enough
          6.   Not being around the women's Tuesday evening league enough
          7.   Not being around the women's Wednesday morning league enough

The list went on and on. Funny thing was, I never got criticized for being away from my family too much. My members wanted me there whenever they were there.

The job had many, many positives, but I just decided I wanted to find something where I could make more and spend more time with my family. Thankfully I found that. It seemed to me the job was best suited to a single person. But, my best friend is married and is a head professional, so I know it can be done harmoniously. It just couldn't be done by me, I suppose.

I am not a huge fan of the PGA of America, for a multitude of reasons. Many of them have already been mentioned here.

David,
But you probably benefited in one way that is a great avenue via the golf professional route.  You probably were able to find a new career via member connections that you would not have found otherwise.   

[David Whitmer]

David,
But you probably benefited in one way that is a great avenue via the golf professional route.  You probably were able to find a new career via member connections that you would not have found otherwise.   

Very true, Mike. In my specific case it was my father and not a member. But, those connections are a great benefit that is not to be overlooked. In the end, those benefits and the other positive traits could not keep me from leaving, but I'd be lying if I said I did not miss many of those perks.

I always tell people, and I mean this sincerely: I'm very glad I got into the business, and I'm very glad I got out of the business.

[Kris Shreiner]

David,

Thank you for the frank assessment. With different variations, your laments echo what I have learned from MANY others in the profession. It isn't for everyone, that's for sure. For all the years you did toil in the trenches...thanks! All the best and I hope you can at least enjoy being around the game in the years ahead. There are many that have had the game become something they avoid or no longer find the affection for like they once did after a run like yours. That's a shame.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jon Wiggett]

Some professions will always be better served with apprenticeships instead of so-called degree programs.  Golf professional is one of those. 

Mike,

I agree with your statement above yet just earlier you were arguing that no education was needed. Flip, flop, flip, flop

Jon

Should I say no "formal" education is needed.  Sadly most in this country do not consider apprenticeships education.  It was not a flip flop...

Too true Mike. It is a shame that apprenticeships are so under valued. That is why we have so many people leaving University here in the UK with degrees in obscure and generally narrow subjects who have no skills to offer the workplace.

So was it flop, flop then or flip, flip

David, it is a shame that you were not better treated but I think it is often the case in big operations. I have always found that the smaller clubs offer the happiest workplaces.

Jon

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