[Mark_Rowlinson]

....can a golf course be called great?

[Tom_Doak]

Some golf courses are great even before they open.

It is really just a question of how long it takes people to recognize it and to be confident in stating it.  Some people are much faster than others ... I had Sand Hills down as a great course before it was open. 

If that takes ten years for a new course, it isn't because the course is changing in that time.

[Gary Slatter]

many courses seem to be "great" until they actually open! 
..and even then they can be great to some while not-so-great to others.  and that's a good thing, isn't it?

[Mac Plumart]

A course can be great just as soon as it opens.

But does the club have the proper infrastructure in place to stand the test of time?  To me, that is the question.  The actual golf course is only one of the players on the stage.  Ownership, members, staff, maintenance...do they all embrace the same goals?  Did they have the correct financial foundation built prior to opening?  Did the architect, and his team, build a course that will stand the test of time?  Do the owners/members understand, and accept, the architect's vision?  I could go on, but I'll stop as I think you all get the point.

"Will it live?"  Perhaps when that is answered, your question can be answered, Mark.  It is great if the course is good enough and we know that it will survive long-term.

[Tom_Doak]

"Will it live?"  Perhaps when that is answered, your question can be answered, Mark.  It is great if the course is good enough and we know that it will survive long-term.

Mac:

So, was Lido not a great course?

Or do you have this wrong?

[Mac Plumart]

It would appear the course was certainly good enough, but all the other important components were flawed.  And, therefore, not a single person on this site has any idea how the course truly played.

[David_Elvins]

I had Sand Hills down as a great course before it was open.  

So, was Lido not a great course?

I am not sure which of these is more impressive, recognising Sand Hills as great before it was playable or Lido as great 60 years after it was playable.  

Seriously though, great courses are at the very pointy end and surely it would be presumptuous to declare a course great without it being subjected to competitive play over a decent period of time.

[Mike_Young]

I had Sand Hills down as a great course before it was open.  

So, was Lido not a great course?

I am not sure which of these is more impressive, recognising Sand Hills as great before it was playable or Lido as great 60 years after it was playable.  

Seriously though, great courses are at the very pointy end and surely it would be presumptuous to declare a course great without it being subjected to competitive play over a decent period of time.

David,
You bring up another point and a good one.  Does competitive play matter that much in making a course a great one?  AND if it does then would we not need to consider match vs stroke play.  IMHO there are some great courses out there that would be very interesting courses to watch good players in match play yet they would shoot lights out in stroke.  JMO.

[David_Elvins]

David,
You bring up another point and a good one.  Does competitive play matter that much in making a course a great one?  AND if it does then would we not need to consider match vs stroke play.  IMHO there are some great courses out there that would be very interesting courses to watch good players in match play yet they would shoot lights out in stroke.  JMO.

Mike,

Just to clarify, by competitive play, I do not necessarily mean between professional or highly competent golfers.  

But when I think about the great golf courses two things stand out.  1. They have extreme features - extreme hazards and extreme contours, no-go areas around the greens. You can not properly assess how good these features are unless you are playing competetively - unless the game matters.  If  you are not playing competiive golf you take driver off every tee, you shoot at every pin, and if you end up in trouble you don't feel the hurt.  You miss out on the architecture.  

And 2. The great golf courses have balance.  The extreme features are balanced out by subtleties throughout the course.  

Unless you play the course, talk about the course with others who have played it, and play it so that it matters, you miss out on a lot.  And probably miss out most on being abe to tell a very good course from a great one.  

[Adam Clayman]

Sure puts a ding on the maintenance meld if a course can be considered great before it's open (grown in)

Sure it can have the potential, but, isn't "great" reserved for the very few?

[Kris Shreiner]

I concur with Mac and Adam. A course can gave the "potential" for greatness prior to opening, or even when open, but only a sustained combination of elements can ensure it maintains that level of specialness. There is also the question of is the course great or the entire experience great? To me, while the ground doesn't have a voice, it can stand on its own merit, though the ENTIRE presentation of the facility is really what elevates it to the highest clutch of superb plays.

Cheers,
Kris

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