[Mark_Rowlinson]

The first question is, 'What is a classic course?' But let's say that it is something pre WW2.

[David_Tepper]

Mark -

In GB&I or the U.S. or either?

DT
tcmnav@aol.com

[Mark Chaplin]

Swinley Forest.

[Bradley Anderson]

Shoreacres hands down. The super there has hand shoveled the layers of sand buildup on bunker faces back to the original soil layer. The bunkers are at their original grade from top to bottom. Tees may have shifted slightly but not by much. I can't imagine a better preserved course.

The link will take you to an article I wrote on it with aerial pics from 1937 and current. The fairways are narrower than 1937 but in those days of gang mowing they often mowed rough and fairway in one pass.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16492815/Shoreacres%20Bunkers%202007jan6.pdf

[Tom_Doak]

Shoreacres hands down. The super there has hand shoveled the layers of sand buildup on bunker faces back to the original soil layer. The bunkers are at their original grade from top to bottom. Tees may have shifted slightly but not by much. I can't imagine a better preserved course.

The link will take you to an article I wrote on it with aerial pics from 1937 and current. The fairways are narrower than 1937 but in those days of gang mowing they often mowed rough and fairway in one pass.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16492815/Shoreacres%20Bunkers%202007jan6.pdf

Bradley:

We've added a couple of bunkers to Shoreacres over the years we've consulted there.

I wouldn't say it's any less altered than Crystal Downs, where they have only added 4 back tees in 70 years.

[Kyle Henderson]

Fisher's Island?

[J_ Crisham]

I played Fishers Island earlier today and learned that Gil Hanse will be doing some work on a green,#2 or 3 that was damaged in a hurricane.

[Mac Plumart]

Askernish

[Mark Saltzman]

I played Fishers Island earlier today and learned that Gil Hanse will be doing some work on a green,#2 or 3 that was damaged in a hurricane.

#2.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd say that Mountain Ridge is probably up there.

Very little in the way of substantive alterations have been done over the last 83 years.

I don't view tree planting and then tree removal as substantive changes to the course

[Bill_McBride]

Alwoodley. 

[Sam Morrow]

I'd say that Mountain Ridge is probably up there.

Very little in the way of substantive alterations have been done over the last 83 years.

I don't view tree planting and then tree removal as substantive changes to the course

I haven't read the article yet but should I not read the Mountain Ridge piece in Links Magazine?

[Bradley Anderson]

Shoreacres hands down. The super there has hand shoveled the layers of sand buildup on bunker faces back to the original soil layer. The bunkers are at their original grade from top to bottom. Tees may have shifted slightly but not by much. I can't imagine a better preserved course.

The link will take you to an article I wrote on it with aerial pics from 1937 and current. The fairways are narrower than 1937 but in those days of gang mowing they often mowed rough and fairway in one pass.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16492815/Shoreacres%20Bunkers%202007jan6.pdf

Tom, I'll take your word for it. I still have not played Crystal Downs.
Bradley:

We've added a couple of bunkers to Shoreacres over the years we've consulted there.

I wouldn't say it's any less altered than Crystal Downs, where they have only added 4 back tees in 70 years.

Tom, I'll take your word for it. Are there any others in your experience that are as pure as CD? Camargo is probably right up there?

[Bradley Anderson]

Old Elm?

Old Elm moved the first green back about 100 yards after the Elm tree for which the club was named died behind the original first green. The second tee was relocated at the same time. The other problem Old Elm has is Silva used heavy equipment to restore the bunkers back in 2000 or thereabouts. The original grades were lost. It was amazing how closely they were put back, but they aren't original.

This raises an issue: why bring in a D6 dozer to "restore" a bunker when all it needs is to have the sod stripped and the sand buildup peeled back down to the original level?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Part of the reason I started researching the evolution of the Irish links courses was to show just how much they had changed since their original layout... In almost all cases very drastically indeed... Which begs the question at what moment were these courses deemed to be at their zenith in design terms and if there was restoration afoot where would you restore to... Certainly not the beginning...

[Adam_Messix]

From the members I played with at Swinley, the front section of the 16th green is not original and as a rule, many of the greens there have lost some space.  This could be easily fixed but my impression is that the members really don't care.  Otherwise, it's pretty unchanged.

I have to think that Myopia Hunt Club and Chicago Golf have got to be on the short list. 

[Adam Lawrence]

Swinley's home hole has been pretty fundamentally altered too - the old fairway was to the left, along the boundary line, which explains the alignment of the green. Given that moving the fairway back hard against the fence is probably impractical, you might argue that the green complex should be altered too - I don't believe the hole works very well in its current configuration.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would put Cape Arundel on that list.  When I visited a few years back, it appeared that Cornish (I think) had done a few bunkers, and they said Doak/Urbina would be doing some more, but other than that, it appeared to be all original work.

[Sven Nilsen]

Chicago Golf is most certainly not untouched.  Raynor came in to make improvements from 1921-23.

[Sean_A]

Swinley also has the issue of the pond!!! 

If we are talking pre WWII - there are a lot of UK courses which have had little work done to them in the past 65 years. 

Ciao

[Mark McKeever]

Augusta National?   

Mark

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sven,

Intersting take, but I would consider CGC a classic era golf course because of its 1922 renovations, and a pre-golden age era course in its original form.  As Mark asked initially, just what is a classic course?  Merion was changed from 1910 to hosting the Open in 1916 and the Amateur in 1930 (I think)  Pinehurst was altered almost continuously, but by Ross.  So, if done early, when do we consider a course still taking initial form, and when do we say its final form?  Luckily there is no huge fight to be had in varying answers.

[Mark McKeever]

On a more serious note, what about NGLA?
Mark

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

How much has Shinnecock been altered for its US Opens?

and surely Merion has to be up there ..just kidding, sorry I dont want to start another war

[Bill_McBride]

Chicago Golf is most certainly not untouched.  Raynor came in to make improvements from 1921-23.

Improvements or an entirely new golf course?  The routings I've seen are quite different. 

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