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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2012, 12:58:04 PM »
Jeff:

You raise a couple of fascinating questions, which I'll lay out in rambling form:

1.  As Ally asked earlier, at what point is a course built?  There were courses originally laid out that the architect knew would be a work in progress, with much of the "final" design depending upon how the original ideas morphing as they were built and played and changed.  There were also courses that started as a strict translation of a design on paper into a course on the ground, and were later altered as those that played the course realized that there may have been a misconnect between the original concepts and how they actually worked with the ground.  There was a different intent and model of creation for the "labor of love" course v. the "tour by train" architect.

So how do you choose a date?  For the former, do you take Pinehurst #2 at the time the full 18 was first open for play, or do you take it right after Ross made his last change to his masterpiece?  For the latter, for a course like Clearwater do you look to the date of the original layout, or do you say the course was done after Maxwell came in and added character to the greens?

2.  So much changed in the way golf was played from 1895 to 1940 that change was almost inevitable.  For a course like Chicago, the changes in the ball alone probably meant that the original Chicago Golf would have been obsolete a long time ago if Raynor had not come in to make improvements.  What I don't know is whether or not what Raynor did was simply an extension of the original ideas formulated for the holes by MacDonald, or some sort of translation.  Did he change the nature of the course, or did he simply modernize it?

3.  Does natural alteration come into play at all?  Blowout bunkers change in shape, move and effect their surrounds all without the influence of man.  Trees grow and narrow corridors, block angles and effect turf conditions.  

4.  Perhaps the question we are asking is what courses still play to the intent of the original architect?  Does this lead us to a discussion of what styles (or strategies) have had staying power, and thus changes may not have been needed?  I would think that courses that demand the ground game be played would have the best chance of not being overwhelmed by the way the game has changed, as would courses that offered limited options off of the tee via the use of crossing hazards, dog legs and the creation of optimal angles and distances.

Much of this seems to this layman to lie at the heart of the renovation/restoration process.  You would know better than I the decisions that are made when deciding to make changes to a classic course.  Do you try to recapture that original intent, perhaps on a bigger scale, or do you take the course in a new direction?

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2012, 12:59:38 PM »
Chicago Golf is most certainly not untouched.  Raynor came in to make improvements from 1921-23.

Improvements or an entirely new golf course?  The routings I've seen are quite different. 

Bill:

I'll defer to those who know more on the subject than I.  The question I have is did Raynor stray from the intent MacDonald had when he first built the course, and if so why?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2012, 01:00:00 PM »
I can't remember, but how much work, if any, has the Maidstone had since it opened?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2012, 01:13:39 PM »
Holston Hills has been labeled, properly I think, as one of the best-preserved Ross courses. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2012, 01:24:06 PM »
I recall doing a tour of Swinley Forest with a bunch of aspiring GCA's about 12 years ago. The greenkeeper who was giving us the tour gave a run down of all of his handy work which included a fair amount of tree felling, the addition of a couple of bunkers on the left slope of the volcano like par 3 (17th ?) and at least one new green on a par 4. Can't recall which hole but the green consisted of a two tier green with what I remember to be a fair old difference between the two tiers. There might have been other changes but can't recall now.

Niall

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2012, 01:46:15 PM »
Kevin Mendik's IMO piece on Classic Restorations is a good read on the subject and includes a notation that 24 courses have been listed on the National Register of Historic Places:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/kevin-mendik-challenges-of-restoring-a-classic-american-golf-course/

By any chance, does anyone know which courses are on the NR?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sinclair Eaddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2012, 04:47:24 PM »
Mark, without a doubt Myopia Hunt Club in So. Hamilton, MA which is remarkably the same design and routing as the original 1896-1901 H.C. Leeds work. You could go there today and play essentially the same course from the 19th century-- routine maintenance notwithstanding.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2012, 10:01:43 PM »
Chicago Golf is most certainly not untouched.  Raynor came in to make improvements from 1921-23.

Improvements or an entirely new golf course?  The routings I've seen are quite different. 

Bill:

I'll defer to those who know more on the subject than I.  The question I have is did Raynor stray from the intent MacDonald had when he first built the course, and if so why?

Sven

Sven, comparing the two routings from memory (big problem these days!  ;D), I think the Raynor course appeared less rudimentary than the Macdonald course.   As always I could be completely wrong. 

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2012, 10:07:00 PM »
I don't think Royal North Devon has changed much since Fowler's redesign.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which is the least altered classic course?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2012, 10:08:29 AM »
I think we can scratch Swinley.  The club secretary told me a new tee was built for safety reasons in the past few years(either 2nd or 3rd).
The 4th green was rebuilt for drainage purposes.

What about Musselburgh?  The oldest course, but I don't know about recent alterations.

On Crystal Downs hasn't the 17th been redone several times?

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

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