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Patrick_Mucci

Has Travis been forgotten
« on: October 08, 2012, 09:07:39 AM »
as one of the great architects  ?

Having played a few of his courses and seeing photos of some of his other courses, he seemed to have been an advocate of pronounced and unique features.

Has his work gone largely unrecognized ?

If so, why ?

Is it because of the "quirk" in his designs ?

BCrosby

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 11:03:54 AM »
Becasue most of Travis's courses are in the NE, he and they have been unfairly overshadowed by the MacD/Raynor axis.

Bob

JESII

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 11:21:45 AM »
What are some examples of his work that's stipp playable?

I seem to remember Kyle Harris discussing Penn State's White course a fair bit...which others would I recognize?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 12:14:10 PM »
What are some examples of his work that's stipp playable?

I seem to remember Kyle Harris discussing Penn State's White course a fair bit...which others would I recognize?

Jim, I think the White course at PSU is a Willie Park, Jr design.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Policano

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 12:49:56 PM »
There is an informative book on Travis, The Old Man written by the late Bob Labbance. It is a good read for anyone interested in the birth of golf in the US. Travis was the first American to win the British Amateur he came to golf late in life and willed himself to become such an accomplished golfer that was widely recognized as the best American golfer in the 1902 -1907 period.

In 1908 he started The American Golfer Magazine and was an ardent protector of the rules in the day.

He also is credited with putting the hole handicaps on the scorecard.

His original designs Include Ekwanock, Hollywood, North Jersey, Canoe Brook, White Beeches, Cc of Scranton, Equinox , CC of Troy Mao g others.

As Pat is more aware than I am, Travis was a member of Garden City Golf Club and made numerous changes to the course.

A number of Travis's courses have been altered over time. There are only a few that have stayed true to Travis.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 12:56:55 PM »
For those of us who have been a part of The Walter J. Travis Society since 1994, Travis is hardly forgotten.  However, we are aware that he has not received wide recognition and respect as a golf course architect that we believe he deserved.  I have a vivid memory of a conversation I had years ago with a prominent member of a prominent golf course architect's society who asked, "Why would you form a society for Walter Travis?  He designed what--25 golf courses!!?"  His body of work paled in comparison to many of the other golden age architects, and his work was confined largely to the northeast.  But, for us, it was the great fun we had each time we played one of his courses, the intrigue of his green complexes, and the interest created by his routing and use of the land that led to a formal organization.  We knew nothing about golf course architecture, but we appreciated what he had created, and we thought he deserved some recognition.  

We have worked hard to increase the awareness and appreciation of Travis's contributions to the game of golf, including providing research and financial support for the late Bob Labbance in the writing and publication of the Travis biography, "The Old Man".  Over the years, we have assisted many authors in the writing of Travis articles for magazines and other publications.  And, we've established a very successful, though modest, scholarship program supporting students studying turfgrass management, landscape design, professional golf management, and sports journalism, as well as those who are outstanding amateur golfers.  Some of our scholarship winners have become terrific ambassadors for the preservation of The Old Man's legacy.

It is exciting for us whenever Travis's name pops up in a GCA thread.  A reminder that he is not forgotten.  He is still a part of the conversation.

For the individual who asked whether there are Travis courses still available for play, I would suggest checking the Travis Society's Travis course listing.  If you would like a quick and concise lesson in Walter J. Travis design concepts, I'd suggest a trip to Kennebunkport, ME, and a round a Cape Arundel Golf Club.  You will not find better, or more dramatic examples of Travis green sites, nor a better example of his ingenious use of a interesting plots of land.

Ed Homsey
www.travissociety.com

Garland Bayley

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 04:21:24 PM »
Travis who?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Terry Lavin

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 04:49:38 PM »
I'd be interested in any knowledgeable comments about Canoe Brook from those who've played it and not forgotten...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JESII

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 04:54:53 PM »
Sounds like a resoinding YES to the first question Pat...which sort of makes the others tough to answer...




Thanks Joe, guess that says it all.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 05:13:20 PM »
My personal feeling is that Travis hasn't been forgotten, but there are many, many people who have yet to discover him. I think that has to do with his lack of geographic reach when compared with some other ODG architects.

I have never played a Travis course, but would certainly like to.

Richard Crumb

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 05:21:05 PM »
Canoe Brook has been redone/rerouted numerous times.  I doubt that there is any Travis left.   

Mike_Cocking

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 05:30:19 PM »
First American?  I think you mean first Australian - he was born in Maldon, Victoria but didn't take the game up until he moved the the states.


Steve Curry

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 05:32:59 PM »
If he was it would be a Travisty, sorry it just came to me!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31700.msg620329.html#msg620329


Mike Policano

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 05:48:31 PM »
Walter was born in Maldon, Australia. He emigrated to the US and was considered American as a golfer apparently by the US and English press according to Bob's book. Perhaps room for debate though.

Ed Homsey

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 05:50:07 PM »
The statement that he was the "first American" to win the British Amateur is correct.  He became an naturalized American citizen in 1890.

Steve--I was unable to open that link.  Keep getting message that something may be misspelled, etc.  

Steve Curry

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 06:00:10 PM »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 07:32:57 PM »
One of the reasons that WJT has not received his due is that the majority of his courses are private ones (with Cape Arundel being a notable exception.)

Another reason is that his courses rarely get play from television, with Westchester being a notable exception.

A third reason is that no golf figure has championed his cause. The late Bob Labbance wrote such a fine book on WJT and it is worth a purchase online at most prices.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Joe Bausch

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 07:46:26 PM »
One of the reasons that WJT has not received his due is that the majority of his courses are private ones (with Cape Arundel being a notable exception.)

Another reason is that his courses rarely get play from television, with Westchester being a notable exception.

A third reason is that no golf figure has championed his cause. The late Bob Labbance wrote such a fine book on WJT and it is worth a purchase online at most prices.

Dear Mr. Mountain man,

     Thanks for the rec of the Labbance book.  I'll be adding it to my collection soon.

Sincerely,
Brent Musberger

P.S.  If you understand this Dear letter, you need help.  ;)

------------
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 08:31:03 PM »
That's Healthy Mountain man to you, sir. Now, back to the topic...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 08:49:38 PM »
Stan,

So the "majority" of Macdonald's, Raynor's, Banks's and Tillinghast's courses weren't mostly private ?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2012, 09:04:12 PM »
good point. seems I'll have to retool that one.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 10:20:17 PM »
How many people knew who Seth Raynor was in 1960, 1970? 1980? 1990? even 2000?

Who was concious of AWT until his courses started turning up in the major chamionship rotas?

Flynn? who was he?

Who was the guy that designed Pebble Beach?

But Nicklaus and Fazio were everywhere, and Trent Jones sold his way into everyone's conciousness.

It's amazing that we know any of the ODGs, and we're lucky to have a small number of committed writers/historians that have helped to keep them in our memory.   

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mac Plumart

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 10:34:15 PM »
I think you are correct, Pat.  But is Travis truly one of the great American architects?  If so, why?  What parts of his resume build the foundation for that bold claim?

My only exposure to Travis is at Sea Island and Garden City.  Would you consider Garden City more Emmet or Travis?

Here is a cut and paste from the GCA.com review of Garden City.  It has a good bit on Travis and some of his design ideals.

Garden City is a true original. Perhaps the closest course in the United States would be the Myopia Hunt Club, and with good reason: the original nine holes of each course wereopened within one year of each other.

Similar to H.C. Leeds, Devereux Emmet was a man of leisure who enjoyed his annual trips to Europe where he studied many of the famous holes and courses. When given the chance to design a course for Garden City, he madefine useof the opportunity and his general routingaccounts for much of Garden City’s appeal to this day.

Garden City quickly hosted the 1902 U.S. Open, where it met with praise fromits participants, including one Donald Ross. No more than two holes went in the same direction, many of the greens were open in front, andgiven the firm turf thanks to the sandy soil, the participants from both sides of the Ocean enjoyed keeping the balllow out of the wind by playing low running shots onto the greens.

Like Leeds, Emmetutilized cross bunkers to present a direct challenge to the golfer. However, unlike Leeds, Emmet didn’tinstillthe greens with much contour nor did he make his bunkers particularly penal – escape was easy.

Enter the Grand Old Man – Walter Travis. Already amember of Garden City, and the runner-up in the 1902 U.S. Open, he was also a student of golf course architecture and later founded The American Golfer magazine, which he used to freely criticize the general direction of architecture in the United States.

In particular, Travis despised the blandness of American golf and wrote, ‘Golf, with us, is mostly of a kindergarten order. The holes are too easy and there is too much of a family resemblance all through.’ He went on to say that American courses were dumbed down to suit the average player and did little to encourage first class play.

In 1906, Travis penned anarticle detailing how the Garden City course could be improved. In particular, he advocated deeper bunkers and more interior movement within the greens.

Travis believed that bunkers were hazards to be avoided. Good luck trying to reach the 6th green from here - it is still 200 yards away.

In part because of his impressive playing credentials, the Club Board decided to act upon his suggestions. Travis spent the next two years adding 50 bunkers, deepening others and re-doing all 18 greens. He also increased the length of the course and once again by 1908, this famous Long Island club was hosting another important event – the U.S. Amateur Championship. Max Behr lost in the finals, and but went on to become the Editor of Golf Illustrated and wrote extensively on the subject of golf architecture.


Do you think this captures the essence of Travis' style?  Is there something missing?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 10:59:14 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 11:25:41 PM »
Sometimes the influence of the architect can't be measured solely in the number of courses on his attribution list. 

Travis belongs on the short list of architects that were innovators.  This 1920 article he wrote for The American Golfer describes a bit of his influence:  http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1920/ag2333f.pdf.  There was a reason his counsel was sought out by many during his day.

If history has forgotten Walter Travis, perhaps its because we often focus on the prolific. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Travis been forgotten
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 11:37:50 PM »
Sven,

Neither AWT or CBM were prolific

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