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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Water Costs
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2012, 07:07:52 AM »
Duncan,

Palm Springs and L.A. Don't enjoy the bountiful rainfall that blesses the British Isles. ;D

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2012, 07:55:14 AM »
Duncan,

Palm Springs and L.A. Don't enjoy the bountiful rainfall that blesses the British Isles. ;D

I suppose the pertinent question is then, should golf courses be built in locations where unsustainable quantities of water are needed?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Water Costs
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2012, 08:07:04 AM »
Duncan,

Palm Springs and L.A. Don't enjoy the bountiful rainfall that blesses the British Isles. ;D

I suppose the pertinent question is then, should golf courses be built in locations where unsustainable quantities of water are needed?

Duncan,

People, not water are what have to be served.

Phoenix, Palm Springs, Los Angeles and many Sunbelt locations attract people who want to play golf.

Those population centers have a need for golf courses.

Given that need, they'll find the water.



astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs New
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2012, 11:32:16 AM »
.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:58:10 PM by astavrides »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2012, 12:39:08 PM »
Duncan,

Palm Springs and L.A. Don't enjoy the bountiful rainfall that blesses the British Isles. ;D

I suppose the pertinent question is then, should golf courses be built in locations where unsustainable quantities of water are needed?

Duncan,

People, not water are what have to be served.

Phoenix, Palm Springs, Los Angeles and many Sunbelt locations attract people who want to play golf.

Those population centers have a need for golf courses.

Given that need, they'll find the water.



are there any countries we can invade to get water?

I think Canada has plenty...
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2012, 12:41:40 PM »
A course in Az. had a 20 year contract for water at $172.00 per acre foot (325,851 gals.) and presently the facility uses 425 ac.ft. per year which equals 138,486,675 gals., or about 380,000 gals per day. It cost them $73,100 per year($200.00 per day) for the water, but the town now wants to charge them about 2 ½ times more for it as their costs have skyrocketed.
Probably not going to be an unusual situation going forward.

http://www.trivalleycentral.com/arizona_city_independent/sports/water-standoff-for-eloy-golf-course-rates-too-high-club/article_2646fd48-f6d7-11e1-9db1-0019bb2963f4.html

Little wonder then that the course, from the highway anyway, looks dead. Not dormant, just dead.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2012, 02:15:48 PM »
A course in Az. had a 20 year contract for water at $172.00 per acre foot (325,851 gals.) and presently the facility uses 425 ac.ft. per year which equals 138,486,675 gals., or about 380,000 gals per day. It cost them $73,100 per year($200.00 per day) for the water, but the town now wants to charge them about 2 ½ times more for it as their costs have skyrocketed.
Probably not going to be an unusual situation going forward.

http://www.trivalleycentral.com/arizona_city_independent/sports/water-standoff-for-eloy-golf-course-rates-too-high-club/article_2646fd48-f6d7-11e1-9db1-0019bb2963f4.html

Little wonder then that the course, from the highway anyway, looks dead. Not dormant, just dead.

Firm and fast Matthew ;D

Jon

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2012, 04:26:54 PM »
I played a course in Pennsylvania after a heavy rain. The club had the sprinklers on all day because they HAD to use effluent water as part of their agreement.  The course, Hershey Mills, is located within a senior citizen housing development.  

Another story. I don't know the details, but I think a single member paid Merion's water bills for years, and started to help the club survive the Great Depression.  

PS. I think water will be the oil of this century.   I think California already has said they want to steal (my word) water from  the Columbia River 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 04:29:29 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2012, 04:43:23 PM »
I played a course in Pennsylvania after a heavy rain. The club had the sprinklers on all day because they HAD to use effluent water as part of their agreement.  The course, Hershey Mills, is located within a senior citizen housing development.  

Another story. I don't know the details, but I think a single member paid Merion's water bills for years, and started to help the club survive the Great Depression.  

PS. I think water will be the oil of this century.   I think California already has said they want to steal (my word) water from  the Columbia River 

Columbia River?  Not a bad idea!!
Actually most of the snow melt from the California Sierras, at least on the western slopes, goes into the Pacific Ocean.  If allowed to build a few more reservoirs, more of it could be saved and sent where it belongs, Southern California.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2012, 05:24:45 PM »
My hometown, Duluth, Minnesota, was once projected to be a city as large or larger than Chicago, because of its strategic location at the western end of Lake Superior. Grain, timber and iron ore poured out of the port for decades, creating an enormous amount of wealth for the industry barons who arrived early to take advantage of the natural resources of the region. Little wonder that Northland Country Club could afford to hire Donald Ross to come to town and design a new 18 hole golf course in the early 1920s.

As the mines and forests were depleted, Duluth fell on hard times (Bob Dylan addressed that history on a couple of early songs) and became essentially a tourist town with a few lingering industrial elements and a port operating well under capacity. But the city is still situated strategically at the head of the largest freshwater lake in the Western Hemisphere (we grew up thinking it was the largest in the world, but those sneaky Russians came up with a bigger one).

It has not escaped the attention of longtime Duluth residents that someday the southern states might come begging, borrowing or even trying to steal that water. I don't expect to live to see it, but maybe Duluth will once again become a boomtown. The weather would have to improve, however.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2012, 05:59:18 PM »
The weather would have to improve, however.

Most of the climate scientists (whose work, I emphasize, I am not prepared to either confirm or refute) would tell you:

It's improving all the time -- and there's much more to come.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2012, 06:09:06 PM »
Actually most of the snow melt from the California Sierras, at least on the western slopes, goes into the Pacific Ocean.  If allowed to build a few more reservoirs, more of it could be saved and sent where it belongs, Southern California.

Emoticon eschewed, I trust! (Thank you.)

But that one line of yours leads me to recommend to you (and others) a fine book by John McPhee: "The Control of Nature."

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2012, 07:01:04 PM »
Does anyone on the DG have an idea what the cost of water is on their local golf courses. In California, where whisky is for drinking and water is to fight over, it is getting pretty expensive. I know of one club with two courses that is preparing for a something like $1.8 million in the coming year.

Firm and fast will come to all of golf at these rates.

Bob

many of the west Los Angeles Clubs - Riv, LA , Bel Air, Brentwood, Hillcrest,  have all installed pumps to take water from the underground water courses and use that water in conjunction with DWP water to mitigate rising costs.  Lakeside uses reclaimed water for 90% of its water.  The list below is how much well water each club uses vs Total water used. 

Bel Air - 50%
Hillcrest - 55%
LACC - 85%
Brentwood - 33%
Riviera - 25%
 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Water Costs
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2012, 07:57:30 AM »
Does anyone on the DG have an idea what the cost of water is on their local golf courses. In California, where whisky is for drinking and water is to fight over, it is getting pretty expensive. I know of one club with two courses that is preparing for a something like $1.8 million in the coming year.

Firm and fast will come to all of golf at these rates.

Bob

many of the west Los Angeles Clubs - Riv, LA , Bel Air, Brentwood, Hillcrest,  have all installed pumps to take water from the underground water courses and use that water in conjunction with DWP water to mitigate rising costs.  Lakeside uses reclaimed water for 90% of its water.  The list below is how much well water each club uses vs Total water used. 

Bel Air - 50%
Hillcrest - 55%
LACC - 85%
Brentwood - 33%
Riviera - 25%

David,

I'm sure the state or some agency meters the amount of water used.
Is that metered amount billed, and if so by whom.
If it's not billed, how soon before it is billed ?

Do any of those clubs have reservoirs or are they impractical in SoCal climates ?

 

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2012, 12:13:13 PM »
We pay $.28/1000 gallons. We use reclaim water, high sodium.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Water Costs
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2012, 09:24:57 PM »
We pay $.28/1000 gallons. We use reclaim water, high sodium.


How many gallons per year and how has the .28 changed over the last decade?

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2012, 09:32:43 PM »
Does anyone on the DG have an idea what the cost of water is on their local golf courses. In California, where whisky is for drinking and water is to fight over, it is getting pretty expensive. I know of one club with two courses that is preparing for a something like $1.8 million in the coming year.

Firm and fast will come to all of golf at these rates.

Bob

many of the west Los Angeles Clubs - Riv, LA , Bel Air, Brentwood, Hillcrest,  have all installed pumps to take water from the underground water courses and use that water in conjunction with DWP water to mitigate rising costs.  Lakeside uses reclaimed water for 90% of its water.  The list below is how much well water each club uses vs Total water used. 

Bel Air - 50%
Hillcrest - 55%
LACC - 85%
Brentwood - 33%
Riviera - 25%

David,

I'm sure the state or some agency meters the amount of water used.
Is that metered amount billed, and if so by whom.
If it's not billed, how soon before it is billed ?

Do any of those clubs have reservoirs or are they impractical in SoCal climates ?

 

As of now, the DWP only monitors how much DWP water each of these courses use, the amount of water that each is allotted before a significant raise in the billing rate is applied ( not sure of how large a bump ).  All of these courses have endured the expense and effort to use the water below their respective properties , and pump it into a very large well.  At my course, we blend the DWP water and the well water for the fairways and roughs, and have a direct line for the DWP water for our greens ( less sodium than well water)

All the clubs use wells rather than reservoirs, we have a creek and lake project in the works at our club where the lake would act like a reservoir not only to pump water back to the top of the creek but also as a storage container in case of severe drought. 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Water Costs
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2012, 10:13:43 PM »
David,

I would imagine that evaporation is a major problem for reservoirs and retention ponds

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2012, 11:05:22 PM »
Actually I don't think evaporation is a huge issue for westside clubs, the average high in the summer is in the low 80's for the mid city clubs and under 80 for the clubs within 5 miles of the ocean. 

The main reason i think that reservoirs are not really an option is due to the fact that most of the Southern California golf courses are on smalliish pieces of land, not more than a ten acres for storage, maintenance etc. 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Water Costs
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2012, 11:33:11 AM »
Here in the Toronto area most of the clubs have traditionally drawn water from the rivers/creeks that flow through the course.  The governments (federal/provincial/municipal) started to give notice a decade or so ago that this would be severely curtailed in the future.  Therefore many clubs started to look for alternative sources of water such as wells or reservoirs.  Many courses have since built reservoirs to handle their irrigation needs.

My club (Scarboro) dug its reservoir last winter and it will be fully operational for next season.  Buying water from the city is deemed to be too expensive and avoided at all costs.  The other problem is that in cases of severe drought (which are rare given that we are on a Great Lake) it is unlikely that you will be able to use water to irrigate the course.

Interestingly even Toronto Hunt, a 9 hole course which sits on the bluffs immediately above Lake Ontario, built a reservoir.  I wonder why they didn't just run a pipe down into the lake unless that is not allowed or there is some other reason why that water would not be suitable to run through their irrigation system (someone told me that zebra mussels would be a problem but I think you would be able to filter those out).