[Mark Saltzman]

is just so good.

On this site we spend a long time talking about the strategic placement of bunkers.  A bunker on x side of the fairway should guard the ideal line into the green.  I agree, but the problem with that is that what % of us can actually play to one side of the fairway over the other? That is, on a straight hole, how often do you (honestly) aim anywhere other than the centre of the fairway?

But the bunkering at Southampton overcomes this problem.  The bunkers INTRUDE on the lines of play (a great thing in my opinion).  The bunker placement forces the golfer to make a decision of line or distance (or often BOTH) on near every tee shot.

On the straightaway holes like 1, 5, 16 and 18, centreline bunkers are used to create the interest.  If one is playing the correct set of tees, and depending on wind conditions, I could see reason to lay-up, (try to) carry, play left or play right of each of these centreline bunkers.  OK, 1 and 18 are not centreline bunkers, but the bunkers do narrow the fairway by half. A decision must be made.

On the dogleg holes like 3, 6 and 17 bunkers are set on the inside of the dogleg, breaking the Line of Instinct, and creating the maximum temptation for a golfer to interact with the hazards.

I have only played the course once, and would have to look back through my pictures to confirm, but I think the DEPTH of the fairway bunkering is also cleverly varied.  Deep centreline bunkers on the short 4s at 5 and 16 add to the level of decision-making.

Perhaps the only misstep, though not a big one, is the depth and placement of the fairway bunker on 15.

I can add pictures if anyone would like.

Thoughts?

[Neil White]

I can add pictures if anyone would like.

Thoughts?

Please.

Neil.

[Matthew Essig]

I can add pictures if anyone would like.

Thoughts?

Please.

Neil.

+1

[Mac Plumart]

http://www.mrpgolf.com/Southampton.html

Here is a link to my site and my thoughts on Southampton.  There are a few pictures of some bunkers.  I'm sure Mark will put up more better photos, but this should serve as a band-aid until then.

Mark, I agree.  The bunkering scheme reminded me a lot of Chicago Golf Club, which, to date, is one of the very best bunkered courses I've played.  The geometric look of these types of bunkers will get bagged on by many, but the placement and interest of them is "top notch".

[Mark Saltzman]

The first is a 400 yard par-4.  It's a little under 250 yards from the back tees to reach the first bunker, which juts all the way to the centre of the fairway and which must be challenged to leave a clear view of the first green.








At the 3rd a pair of bunkers sit on the inside of the dogleg, tempting (begging) the golfer to challenge them, even if the carry is longer than he can comfortably make into the prevailing wind.




Successfully challenge the bunkers and the tee ball will find a speed slot and again a preferred angle into the green.




This nasty centreline bunker adds tremendous interest to the 280 yard downwind 5th.




At the 6th a trio of bunkers sit on the inside of the dogleg.  The bunkers guard the ideal line and must be challenged to leave a short club into a very difficult green.




At the 9th this fairway bunker nearly reaches the centre of the fairway:




And at the 12th a pair of staggered fairway bunkers jut into the driving zone...




While a single cavernous bunker cuts the fairway width by half 100 yards short of the green...




The aforementioned dubious bunker at the 15th, which is penal in placement and perhaps too deep given its location:




The 310 yard 16th is reachable by some, but one most carry this perfectly placed centreline bunker to reach the green.  Golfers laying up must play either left or right of the centreline (and thus challenge the flanking fairway bunkers) to leave a clear view of the flag.






Excellent mowing lines at the 16th:




Again at the straightaway 18th a decision must be made as anyone finding the fairway bunker will have little hope of reaching the green in regulation.

[Mac Plumart]

Mark...great job!

Lemme axe one question.  Is this a Southampton thing or a Raynor thing? 

This might be a cool exercise.  What is the name of the 1st hole template (or whichever holes you've posted pictures of)?  Can we then get aerials of that specific hole and that same template from other Raynor courses? 

For example, 6 is a "Raynor's Prize Dogleg".  Can we get that aerial and other aerials from other Prize Doglegs and compare and contrast the bunkering schemes between those holes?

[Wade Schueneman]

I agree, Mark.  The bunkering is especially important on the flatter holes east (I think) of the road.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I think one of the neat features of the bunkers at Southampton is their deceptive nature.

Like optical illusions they seem to confuse and put the golfer in doubt.

Southampton is a wonderful golf course that's fun to play, and the wind is the icing on the cake

[Mark Pritchett]

Lemme axe one question.  Is this a Southampton thing or a Raynor thing? 

It might be a Silva thing. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Lemme axe one question.  Is this a Southampton thing or a Raynor thing? 

It might be a Silva thing. 

Mountain Lake North is a complement to all parties involved. In the fun category, Mountain Lake and Southampton are way up there. The land is very different at Tamarack, a Banks redo by Silva in Connecticut, but it too is very high on the fun scale. The bunkering at "The Rack" has a different look.

All three courses allow you to bomb in some places from the tee and in others it is better to tact around the hole/fairway. Very fun golf.

[Dave Greene]

We used old photos and memories from some seniors to put our Raynor bunkers back in place pretty much as they once were. Yes there have been additional bunkers added during our restoration/renovation by Brian Silva. So I guess you could say the bunkers are Raynor/Silva but ALWAYS with Mr. Raynor in mind.
As for the penal bunker on #15; yes it is a tough one and it is not the only penal bunker in our fairways. The course is only about 6,400 yards (plays longer) and needed some teeth for the modern game. We also have some challanging greens to protect the course. We made our fairways much wider which allows for plenty of room to avoid a bunker like the one on hole #15. Removing all of our trees on our last seven holes allowed us the room to widen the fairways. The idea with the bunkers was to go "old school" and make the bunkers mean something. Brian felt and I agree that too many modern American courses in the last 50 or so years mostly have dumbed down the bunkering. Our old photos did show some very penal bunkers in some places and we went with it.
I do hear about that bunker on 15 from time to time and I sort of tongue in cheek ask "Is the fairway not wide enough?". At any rate we are happy with our course and the wonderful job Brian Silva did for us. It is much fun indeed.
 Thank you Mark for the nice comments and the great photos. It was certainly a pleasure to meet you. I hope you get back our way again sometime.

Dave Greene
SGC Green Chairman

[Mac Plumart]

Dave...

I was bowled over seeing the before restoration photos and then playing what is there now.  Any chance of posting some before and after photos of a few holes?

[Dave Greene]

I'll try but I am having a hard time posting photos on this site.

[Gene Greco]

Mac,

      Dave G sent me some before and after photos and will be happy to send them to you or anyone else who might be able to post them on this thread.

         Gene

[Mac Plumart]

Gene...please do!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Greene,

I agree with you and Brian about the dumbing down of bunkers over the last 50-60 years, but, I think the dumbing down of bunkers over the years works in your favor because the design of your bunkers makes them look so much more ferocious than mosts golfers are used to, so the fear factor is elevated from the moment they step onto the first tee.

I must tell you that the bunkers also present the first time golfer with a dilemma in terms of distance.
Their look makes them hard to gauge.  Unfortunately, with modern lasers, the golfer can eliminate that uncertainty, that's one of the reasons I'm not in favor of laser range finders for other than hole locations and even then I"m not a fan.

The bunkers combine form and function in terms of their visual presentation to the golfer and the dilemma the golfer faces if he's unlucky enough to be in them.

You did a great job, but, keep going, there's more fine tuning to be done 

I'd love to play the course and I'd love to watch golfers play the course if I could set the hole locations.
You have so many really great, really challenging locations.
As you indicated, the course plays longer than it's yardage, but, I'd love to have a "greenskeeper's revenge" tournament there one day.
What a blast.

# 4 has to be one of the most frightening holes in golf, especially with a back hole location.




 

[Dave Greene]

Thanks Pat.
I agree on all accounts. We will be tweaking for a while I am sure. You are correct about #4 with the pin in the back and out of bounds so close it is tough. Perhaps even more scary is a front hole location. With the flag stick in front and close to the false front one must be careful. Once you get onto the green and then have to putt down hill back to the hole any putt that goes just a liitle too far will role down the false front and the steep approach to about 20 yards in front of the green.
On another note. Our clean up after Hurricane Sandy is minimal. I can only imagine what it would have been before we removed the trees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

I've been a victim of the false front on # 4 having hit a decent approach with some back spin that came back off the green and down the steep slope leaving me another very difficult recovery.

Good point about the lack of need for tree clean up.

Perhaps that will set off a light bulb for others considering a tree management program.

[Mike Sweeney]

Here is the 12th hole over the years via Dr Gene:

1925


2004


2012

[Dave Greene]

Thanks Mike and Gene for getting the photos posted. As you can see we have come full circle at SGC.

[Michael Whitaker]

Thanks Mike and Gene for getting the photos posted. As you can see we have come full circle at SGC.

Dave,

When were all the trees in the 2004 picture planted? Was there a concerted effort by the club to turn the course into a parkland style?

[Dave Greene]

Holes 12 through 18 were originally a farm field. Almost all of these trees were planted in the late 1960's. Rows of silver maples lining each fairway. It was part of a move to "modernize" the course in 1968. At that time single row fairway irrigation was installed for the first time and most of the Raynor bunkers were bulldozed under and replaced with bunkers that were "modern". The bunkers they put in at the time were built up high with soil from an area which is now our practice range. We had to remove all of this fill to put back the Raynor bunkers so we used the soil to create some mounding on the course and grassed it over with fescues.

[Mark McKeever]

Dave,

You should be proud.  That tree clearing is PHENOMENAL.

Mark

[Dave Greene]

Thanks Mark.

It wasn't always easy. We spent most of a decade educating and at times it seemed like it was falling on deaf ears but we prevailed. I had to pull a few arrows out of my back but we had a lot of support too along with a strong president. It was one of the best things we could have done as it allowed Brian Silva some width to work on the canvas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

I'm a big fan of Raynor's work and not only appreciate what you've done, but, would encourage other clubs to perform similar work.

You have a Raynor neighbor West and just down RT 27.

I think Westhampton is a wonderful golf course, really challenging and really fun to play.

But, some, if not many of the critical features are no longer in play.

They have the early aerials along with Raynor's 1914 Schematic.

I'd love to see them restore their bunkers, especially the many abandoned cross bunkers, but, not where they were in 1914, but, like you, where they'd be relevant today.

I've encouraged several members to come and see the terrific work that you did as maybe it will inspire them.

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