What makes a good Greens Committee Chairman?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - You are a disgrace.

I see, I disagree with you and offer hard evidence to refute your absurd position, which you tried to change after you came under fire by just about everyone, and because you're made to look like a fool, by me and others, I'm a disgrace.

Interesting tactic.

Stick to designing

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adrian,

Just so you don't try to edit what you typed and deny your absurd position, I thought that I'd memorialize it by posting your reply.

Read it again and maybe, just maybe you'll come to terms with your stated opinion.

Adrian & Dan,

Your responses are naive at best.

So the superintendent is to act independently ?NO

Then, to whom does he report ?

He's to consult Kreskin to determine the membership's priorities ?HE WORKS TO A BRIEF PREPARED BY THE BOARD/COMMITTEE

Does that committee have a chairman, or is it rudderless ?ZERO COMMITTEES ARE BEST SO IF ITS A YES OR NO TO RUDDERLESS THEN PUT ME DOWN FOR RUDDERLESS

He's to have no oversight ?HE WORKS UNDER THE GM AND PERHAPS A CONSULTING AGRONOMIST WHO VISITS ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR

Oh, the GM ?  And what agronomic expertise does he possess ?MOST GENERAL MANAGERS WILL HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING, BUT BY DEFINITION HE IS THE GENERAL MANAGER

He's to have no advocate with knowledge of his operation at the board level ?HE CAN PRODUCE HIS OWN MONTHLY/QUARTERLY REPORT THAT CAN BE DISTRIBUTED

DISTRIBUTED ?  That's nice.
If he and that report don't have a dedicated advocate at the board level, either chaos, confusion and neglect will be the result. LET THE SUPERINTENDENT SPEAK FOR HIMSELF, INFORMATION PASSED ON CAN BE DISTORTED

Let's just do away with every chair and let the Superintendent, Head Pro and Chef do whatever they want without any supervision or direction.LET THE PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE DO THEIR WORK, MOST CLUBS HAVE REALISED THIS IS BEST ROUTE

I'm surprised that you guys don't form a consulting firm and tout your concept to all of the clubs that are doing it the old fashioned way

YES, ITS THE WAY FORWARD

It's a formula for disaster YOUR OPINION V MINE

Have you ever:

1.    Been a green chairman
2.    Been a board member
3.    Been a member of a private club

PATRICK I HAVE DESIGNED 12 GOLF COURSES AND BEEN INVOLVED AS A GOLF COURSE CONSULANT TO 23 OTHERS, SOME ON AGRONOMIC MATTERS, I AM THE BOARD AT MY CURRENT CLUB, I HAVE BEEN A MEMBER OF SEVERAL GOLF CLUBS, I TURNED PROFESSIONAL AGED 16 AND MOVED INTO COURSE MANAGEMENT 4 YEARS LATER AFTER I HAD ONLY EARNED £8 THAT YEAR, I then moved into golf course design having spent a lot of time exploring golf courses, I started my golf company with £6,000 in 1989, today we have borrowings of £880,000 and assetts of close to £9,000,000, yes I have done it my way but my way has worked for the other 12 courses I have designed. In the UK 86% of new golf course fail, I am 10 out of 10 (2 clubs have 36 holes)

[Sean_A]

Interesting thread.  I think where Adrian is coming from is Captain/Green Chair having a say in the day to day operations of the Super. Meaning, Captain/Green Chair making decisions about course closure etc.  

sean,

I don't think you're correct on that issue

First, ask yourself, who has the time and interest to get involved in daily minutia ?
The routine , boring aspects of everyday operations  ?

Any Green Chairman who immerses themselves to that level is a terrible GC and should be replaced ASAP.

That was NEVER the issue or focus of this thread, that's simply your outlier interpretation.

No question I am with Adrian here with the caveat that the Super must be reasonable in balancing member desires with course conditioning.

I also think Adrian may be thinking of private clubs without membership equity - big difference.

Not necessarily.
In a non-equity membership it depends upon how actively involved the owner wants to be and how much he wants his members to feel that they have a voice  in how the club operates.

Think Trump, Hansen and Bergstol.

But, I disagree with Adrian in that I believe private clubs need a Green Comm to do the things mentioned above - ie

Super/membership liaison and flack deflector
budget agreeing with membership expectation
overseeing master plans

I think the biggest assets one needs to be Green Chair is common sense, good listener/communicator, flexibility, time, sense of humour and a willingness to learn.  This all sounds quite easy, but it takes incredible patience to be a committee man.  Without a very good chair, so much time and energy is wasted that it drives people away from serving.  

Ciao

Patrick

I did say I think...I could easily be wrong about Adrian's position, but concerning Captains/Green Chairs, I think I am correct about a large percentage of clubs in England at least up to 10 years ago.  Poor decision-making concerning daily routine was one reason I left my old club.  Of course, you can guess what long term decision-making was like - total shambles and the course showed it.

So far as non-equity clubs having Green Comms - I wouldn't put a lot of faith in the idea.  I am sure it can work here and there, but not many owners are gonna give much power away when their bottom line is at stake.  Sure, its great to have Comms, but its another thing to actually give them power.   

Ciao

[David_Elvins]

Patrick,

I think it might be time to give it a rest, the point has been made and the poor fellow seems a bit punch drunk.

There is some absolutely fantastic material in this thread from yourself, SL Solow, Jason Topp, (EDIT and Michael George), and others - it would make a fantastic reference.  It would be a pity to have it's quality diluted by further expansion of an argument that has been well and truly won.  

[Michael George]

Patrick,

I think it might be time to give it a rest, the point has been made and the poor fellow seems a bit punch drunk.

There is some absolutely fantastic material in this thread from yourself, SL Solow, Jason Topp and others - it would make a fantastic reference.  It would be a pity to have it's quality diluted by further expansion of an argument that has been well and truly won.  

David - your post is worse than anything Adrian said.  To exclude my post and include those other guys, you obviously were not thinking   .... or maybe you were   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Ask yourself this question.

How is an owner's position, regarding the functioning of the Green Committee, different, if he's the GC, or if another member, who possesses the three assets I listed, is the GC ?

Don't they have the same goals ?

A difference I see might be tied to the overall profitability of the club.

Whereas, in an equity based club, profibility is almost never a consideration.

And, with an owner, continuity is more stable, versus revolving GC's.

[Sean_A]

Pat

Follow the money.  Most folks own courses to make money.  It isn't likely that a volunteer Comm is going to help the owner's bottom line when they in effect represent the membership. I am not saying it can't and doesn't happen, but I won't hold my breath for many TRUE win-win stories.

Ciao   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

Follow the money.  Most folks own courses to make money. 

Not always.

I think some build and own courses for the love of the game and hope that they won't lose too much money

It isn't likely that a volunteer Comm is going to help the owner's bottom line when they in effect represent the membership.

At clubs owned by a third party, the Green Chairman and the committee know the drill, they're not oblivious to the relationships between owner, committee and membership.

I've seen Green Committees vote unanimously on an issue or budget item, only to have it rejected by the Board.
How is a Board substantively different from an owner ?

I am not saying it can't and doesn't happen, but I won't hold my breath for many TRUE win-win stories.

I'm just curious as to how many, offering their opinions, have served on Green Committees and how many have actually been Green Chairman?

And for those who have never served in either capacity, what qualifies you to comment with a high degree of knowledge and certainty on the workings of Green Committees and their Chairmen ? 

[Grant Saunders]

What makes a good green committee chairman?

Someone smart enough to never make comparisons between their home lawn and the golf course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
If the staff is qualified, I like to use the leadership technique described in It's Your Ship, a wonderful book (http://www.amazon.com/dp/145552302X/ref=asc_df_145552302X2217591?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=145552302X&hvpos=1o2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1242056098218821566&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=

But you obviously can't use this technique with everybody.   A good leader knows what technique to use for every situation (and isn't afraid to make an error if he/she learns from it).

PS - I was on our green committee for 8 years.  Some tough years and some fantastic years.  In my last year, it essentially became a mentoring relationship where our Head Greenkeeper was the mentor.  He re-established a relationship with the architect, knows how to grow grass with little water, and fully understands the science and art of being a super.  Yes, we're extremely lucky!

[Leo Barber]

I am considering asking for this job at my board meeting this week.  To those who have held the job, or feel qualified to answer, what makes a good greens committee chairman?

I think it's worth noting that we will have a new Superintendent starting in the next month or so.

Also, I have no knowledge of agronomy.  Do you think that is a deal breaker, not really relevant, or somewhere in the middle.

Thanks in advance.

Brian

Hi Brian

Great question and apologies in advance.  I have come into the discussion late and after skipping to the last page have seen enough green ink to skip all the posts in between.

Its a really hard question though because depending on the quality of your Supt your skill set requirement may vary.  As much as there is poor Supts out there, likewise is true for Chairmans.  Your number one priority should be to employ a great Supt and then provide the support and space for him to thrive.  The Club needs to be clear on their course objectives and fundimentals.  The R&A has given some great lead on this and this has assisted both chairman and Supt.  Agronomy isn't important in my view but knowing what you want out of agronomy is (this will be clarfied in the Course Policy Document).  I then think its really important to forge a great relationship with your Supt - get on the same page (same page as the agreed policy) and make it happen.  Supts love support.  I think the fact you are on this website means you are willing to learn about what makes for great golf.  Embrace your course, understand your environment, agree on the set up and support your Supt.  You will go great.

[Leo Barber]

Having served in a co-chair role (which drove me nuts) for several years, my basic advice is to spend some time on the committee before seeking the chair position.  Setting that aside, I loved the role but there are several tasks you need to embrace:

I view the role as green chair to be custodian of the club's money spent on the care of the golf course.

 You need to understand the club's expectation and desires with respect to the upkeep of the course.

 You need to advocate for the budget from the club to meet those expectations.

You need to have an understanding of what is going well and poorly with respect to the condition of the course from the perspective of the membership and from the perspective of the super and be willing to weigh in to resolve differences on that front and to advocate for one side or the other as needed.

 You need to do everything you can to make sure those dollars are being spent in the most effective manner possible. 

You need to anticipate how to deal with the budget this year and for the long term so that you can anticipate and address issues over the course of years rather than in the face of a problem.  It is important to have an understanding of the overall direction of the club from a business perspective in order to effectively address these issues.

When something goes wrong on the course (which it inevitably will) you need to be able to communicate to the membership what happened and what is being done to address the issue. 

When a member makes a stupid suggestion or complaint you need to be able to handle such suggestions.

All of these requirements demand communication and listening skills.  None require a phd.

Jason, great post.  This would sit in my Governance Manual under "Roles and Responsbilities - Greens Chairman"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

Mike Policano is an excellent green chairman, call, IM or email him, he can tell you all you need to know about the task.

What's interesting is that, from all those giving advice, none have mentioned taking inventory of the equipment, determining it's shelf life and replacement cost and developing an acquisition schedule for the next

A member, not previously on the Green Committee, has to get up to speed as to the projects in progress/scheduled and what the generally accepted practices are.

The first year on the job should be a year of absorption

What no one else has mentioned is that as Chairman you must now choose your committee, which can be a difficult and dicey exercise.
Choosing the right committee members is a critical process and can be the key to how successful your tenure will be.
Having other Board members on the committee can help when it's time to vote.
 

[Tony Ristola]

I am considering asking for this job at my board meeting this week.  To those who have held the job, or feel qualified to answer, what makes a good greens committee chairman?

I think it's worth noting that we will have a new Superintendent starting in the next month or so.

Also, I have no knowledge of agronomy.  Do you think that is a deal breaker, not really relevant, or somewhere in the middle.

Thanks in advance.

Brian

Brian - I think you have answered your own question if you have no knowledge of agronomy. Turf knowledge is more important than understanding what you think makes a great hole.

Isn't it often a case of a little knowledge is dangerous? That most know not, and those who know not that they know not are doubly so?
Isn't it better to have someone who knows not but is eager to learn and stick with the position?
There is a lot that goes into selecting a superintendent, a long while back there was a great discussion about the selection process. Shouldn't the club (in general) let him know what his budget is, and let the professional do his job... without a lot of mico-managing?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

A good GC sits with the Superintendent and constructs a budget for presentation for the board.

That budget is not isolated or in a vacuum as there are decades of budgets preceding it.

No one with a brain just gets out of the way and let's him do his job, that would be tantamount to abdicating your oversight and fiduciary responsibilities.

In addition, things change from when the budget was crafted and approved, thus there has to be an ongoing, working relationship between the GC and the Superintendent so that they can deal with those changes and get Board approval should additional funds be required.

How many of you, offering your opinion on what it takes to be a good Green Chairman, have ever been a Green Chairman ?

How many of you have served on a Green Committee ?

[JMEvensky]

How many of you, offering your opinion on what it takes to be a good Green Chairman, have ever been a Green Chairman ?

How many of you have served on a Green Committee ?

Equally important question--"Whose frame of reference is member-owned clubs versus a different ownership structure?".

[Patrick_Mucci]

How many of you, offering your opinion on what it takes to be a good Green Chairman, have ever been a Green Chairman ?

How many of you have served on a Green Committee ?

Equally important question--"Whose frame of reference is member-owned clubs versus a different ownership structure?".

JME,

In order to answer that you really have to view the situation from an historical perspective, unless it's a brand new club.

In other words, what are you inheriting from predecessors in terms of the culture, prior practices and perspectives of the membership or owner.

[Tony Ristola]

Tony,

A good GC sits with the Superintendent and constructs a budget for presentation for the board.

That budget is not isolated or in a vacuum as there are decades of budgets preceding it.

Not every club has decades of budgets. I've spent enough time in emerging markets. There aren't decades, though you can get a good idea of what the forecasted budget will produce.

No one with a brain just gets out of the way and let's him do his job, that would be tantamount to abdicating your oversight and fiduciary responsibilities.

I'm not saying that and did use the word "micromanage"... for I have seen this. I am saying folks with little agronomic experience (and I'd venture it is most) would be best not stick their finger in something they know little about.

In addition, things change from when the budget was crafted and approved, thus there has to be an ongoing, working relationship between the GC and the Superintendent so that they can deal with those changes and get Board approval should additional funds be required.

Si. No disagreement there. Common sense.

How many of you, offering your opinion on what it takes to be a good Green Chairman, have ever been a Green Chairman ?

How many of you have served on a Green Committee ?

How many could go to a hole and identify rye grass, blue grass, poa, bent or fescue? Surely many in long established clubs, but there are 17,000 courses in the US... 30,000 in the world. That's a lot of expertise we're asking for at the committee level.

[Mark Chaplin]

I can see a perfectly valid reason for a Board member to be responsible for course matters but a commitee should be totally unnecessary unless you want a talking shop.

The Greens Member should critically assess the Superintendents proposed budget and once agreement is made present it to the Board.

The Superintendent should work in conjunction with an independent agronomist, the R&A have an excellent system for this. Unless the Superintendent spends half his time at conferences and college he will miss out on lots of the agronomic advances and his tutors will be the sales reps!

The Board sets the strategy and the budget and the Greens Member should oversee it's implimentation.

The Superintendent should be line managed by the General Manager of the club.

[cary lichtenstein]

Appreciate all the responses.

I think that the ingredients that would hopefully make me good for the job are -

I have the time

I was thinking that my lack of any agronomy knowledge might be a plus, as I will spend my time more productively as -

an intermediary between the Super and the membership, so they can come to me instead of all going to the Super directly

trying to think of creative ideas relating to the course - maybe getting kids from the local schools involved in part time work at the course, combined with some type of basic class on agronomy;  other ideas like that that might be outside the box

helping sell the membership on both what the Super is doing as well as longer range projects that need to be undertaken.

As I'm in no way qualified to tell the Super how to do his job, I can spend my time making his job easier.

That was more along the lines of what I was thinking.

Why do you feel that u should be his boss?  Leave him alone and let him do his job

[JESII]

Cary,

Who do you think should be a superintendent's boss/supervisor?

[Mike_Young]

I think most clubs appoint the green chair from the board of directors.  In that format he is the only member of the green committee that actually has any power.  The rest are made up of volunteer members who come to meetings and make suggestions but their votes on matters are more of a sampling and can be overridden by the green chair since he is the only board member.  And he has to go back to the board to get approval for most items.
After reading this thread I no longer know what makes a good one

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

A good GC sits with the Superintendent and constructs a budget for presentation for the board.

That budget is not isolated or in a vacuum as there are decades of budgets preceding it.

Not every club has decades of budgets. I've spent enough time in emerging markets. There aren't decades, though you can get a good idea of what the forecasted budget will produce.

Tony, I was making the point that budgets don't appear out of thin air, they are a product of, and a directly related to the years immediately prior

No one with a brain just gets out of the way and let's him do his job, that would be tantamount to abdicating your oversight and fiduciary responsibilities.

I'm not saying that and did use the word "micromanage"... for I have seen this. I am saying folks with little agronomic experience (and I'd venture it is most) would be best not stick their finger in something they know little about.

In my limited experience, the last thing that GC's and committees get into is agronomics.
I don't know who implied this, but, they obviously have little or no experience with Green Committees and Green Chairman.
That aspect of the job is minimal

In addition, things change from when the budget was crafted and approved, thus there has to be an ongoing, working relationship between the GC and the Superintendent so that they can deal with those changes and get Board approval should additional funds be required.

Si.

No disagreement there. Common sense.

How many of you, offering your opinion on what it takes to be a good Green Chairman, have ever been a Green Chairman ?

How many of you have served on a Green Committee ?

How many could go to a hole and identify rye grass, blue grass, poa, bent or fescue? Surely many in long established clubs, but there are 17,000 courses in the US... 30,000 in the world. That's a lot of expertise we're asking for at the committee level.

Not really.  Grass types are rarely an issue.
Very little, with respect to the grass, changes between the Fall of one year and the Spring of the next year.
Thus, grass and agronomy are rarely a substantive issue for the GC and the committee

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why do you feel that u should be his boss? 

Because, that's how the position functions, unless you want the chef and tennis pro to report to the Green Chairman

Leave him alone and let him do his job

Cary,

How did that work out with the prior Superintendent ?  ?  ?

[Pat Burke]

1  find out Golf Course budgets in the area
2  Visit, question, discover the course(s) with consistently best conditions
3  Determine best conditions to budget
4  Steal that supt

Great chairman