What are the great golf holes that don't have a penal hazard?

[Jason Thurman]

#5 at Pinehurst #2.

#7 at Ballyneal.

Both have bunkers, but none that I would consider to be penal bunkers.

David,

You must be a tremendous bunker player if you don't consider the left greenside bunker on #5 at No. 2 penal. It's one of the worst spots on that entire course.

A penal hazard just refers to a hazard that extracts a penalty when found. It's different from a penal hole, which is a hole that dictates shots and penalizes anyone who misses them. Most of the hazards on strategic holes are penal. Without penal hazards, there is no strategy because there's no risk.

I know many on this site cringe when they hear the word "penal," but I don't understand how a hole can be "great" or "strategic" if there isn't at least one position to avoid.

[Mark Pearce]

Jason,

1) That position need not be a hazard (e.g. the Valley of Sin)

2)  A great hole may (as in the case of Foxy) simply require an excellent shot (in the case of Foxy the approach) without an obvious position to avoid

[Garland Bayley]

...Without penal hazards, there is no strategy because there's no risk. That is simply wrong!

I know many on this site cringe when they hear the word "penal," but I don't understand how a hole can be "great" or "strategic" if there isn't at least one position to avoid. Just because there are positions to avoid, doesn't mean they are penal.

For example, the LPGA used to play at Columbia Edgewater. Almost every single one of them would avoid the hill on 7 (for the tournament routing) even though there was no hazard to get into. A few would try to hit it far enough to get to the bottom of the hill, but no one wanted to hit from the slope.

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,

1) That position need not be a hazard (e.g. the Valley of Sin)

Agree totally, though the original post puts "hazard" in quotes. I might consider the Valley of Sin a "hazard," even though it isn't a bunker or water. It's certainly a penalizing feature that introduces more strategy into the hole.

Re: Foxy, I haven't seen it so I can't comment.

GJ,

Please explain why a position that doesn't inflict some sort of penalty would be considered a position to avoid. It sounds like the LPGA players you're mentioning considered the slope a feature that led to a more difficult shot, i.e. a penalty to a person in that position. Also, explain how risk can exist without penalty.

[Garland Bayley]

Jason,

1) That position need not be a hazard (e.g. the Valley of Sin)

Agree totally, though the original post puts "hazard" in quotes. I might consider the Valley of Sin a "hazard," even though it isn't a bunker or water. It's certainly a penalizing feature that introduces more strategy into the hole.

Re: Foxy, I haven't seen it so I can't comment.

GJ,

Please explain why a position that doesn't inflict some sort of penalty would be considered a position to avoid. It sounds like the LPGA players you're mentioning considered the slope a feature that led to a more difficult shot, i.e. a penalty to a person in that position. Also, explain how risk can exist without penalty.

Dude,

You wrote "penal hazard". Had you written inconvenient obstacle you might be on the right track. With your presumed definition of penal, murderers should get a slap on the wrist. And, we all know hazard is defined in the rules of golf, and a hill ain't a hazard.

In the case of the hill at Columbia Edgewater, they were going to make a few fewer eagles. Since eagles were quite rare in the first place, it wasn't exactly what one would consider penal, just inconvenient. In fact, given the extra roll on the hill, it is not a forgone conclusion that they were going to make fewer eagles. So maybe they were strategically avoiding an uncomfortable stance.

[Jason Thurman]

GJ,

You still haven't said anything coherent, but I'll try to respond. I'll only point out that I said "penal hazard" in response to David's implication that the bunkers on number 5 at No. 2 aren't penal. I was simply stating that holes using hazards for strategy must use penal ones, or the strategy doesn't exist (if I can recover just as easily from the hazard as from Position A, then there's no reason for me to think strategically). I wasn't stating that all holes with strategy must have a "penal hazard," as your out of context statement implies. However, I do believe they must have at least one position that extracts a penalty from the player who finds it, whether it's a traditional hazard, a disadvantageous angle, or a feature in the terrain such as a deep valley or awkward downslope.

pen·al·ty/ˈpenltē/Noun: A disadvantage or unpleasant experience suffered as the result of an action or circumstance.

You must play by very odd rules if something that prevents a lower score on a hole isn't extracting a penalty. I would say that the player who makes par from the slope you mention would feel disadvantaged to the person who made eagle or a 2-putt birdie by avoiding it.

[David Whitmer]

David,

You must be a tremendous bunker player if you don't consider the left greenside bunker on #5 at No. 2 penal. It's one of the worst spots on that entire course.

I am not a tremendous bunker player...far from it. But I can pop the ball out of that bunker and put it on the green, then two-putt for a bogey. I've done exactly that twice.

The little bunker on #10 at Pine Valley...the Road Bunker...those are bunkers I consider to be penal. Very subjective, to be sure.

I think there are degrees of difficulty (penal-ty??). The bunker to the left of the fifth green at No. 2 is a difficult one, no doubt. It's more difficult than short grass. But I don't think it's anything that a golfer with a decent bunker game shouldn't be able to extricate himself from. It's still a bunker that invokes strategy...you want to avoid it. But if you happen to find it, I don't think it will lead to disaster.

When I think of a penal bunker that just screams "Don't hit it here!", I think of the Road Bunker. I'm sure David Duval would agree with me.

[SteveOgulukian]

NGLA #2 - I don't think there is a "penal" hazard on that hole

[Jason Thurman]

David, I get what you're saying. But you're talking about how it's relatively easy to make bogey from that bunker. Isn't that a one stroke penalty over the par you might expect to be able to save from short grass? How much of a penalty do you think the bunker gives vs. the player who simply misses the green on short grass? Does a half stroke sound fair?

That might not be as penal as the Road Hole bunker or the bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley, but it's still a statistically significant and very present penalty for hitting into that hazard. I don't think we'll hear anyone shouting "Get in the bunker!" to a pulled approach in 2014, as we hear on many other Tour courses, and I think most players would tell you that they definitely want to stay out of there.

[Brett Heffes]

# 8 at Prairie Dunes.  In my opinion, it is one of the better par 4s in the U.S.

[Garland Bayley]

...

pen·al·ty/ˈpenltē/Noun: A disadvantage or unpleasant experience suffered as the result of an action or circumstance.

You must play by very odd rules if something that prevents a lower score on a hole isn't extracting a penalty. I would say that the player who makes par from the slope you mention would feel disadvantaged to the person who made eagle or a 2-putt birdie by avoiding it.

Which part of the following didn't you understand?

"In fact, given the extra roll on the hill, it is not a forgone conclusion that they were going to make fewer eagles. So maybe they were strategically avoiding an uncomfortable stance."

You seem conveniently to ignore the "disadvantaged" person that makes par after avoiding the slope while playing with players that make eagle or 2-putt birdie after hitting off of it.

For that matter, why would anyone play a game where they are playing from penal hazards (your definition) more than 95% of the time.
You are softening the definitions of penal and hazard to the point of being useless. The 5 wood from the fairway bunker that most can hit on the green must be a penal hazard in you opinion, because of the few that won't be able to hit the green. The will be the "disadvantaged".

[David Whitmer]

David, I get what you're saying. But you're talking about how it's relatively easy to make bogey from that bunker. Isn't that a one stroke penalty over the par you might expect to be able to save from short grass? How much of a penalty do you think the bunker gives vs. the player who simply misses the green on short grass? Does a half stroke sound fair?

That might not be as penal as the Road Hole bunker or the bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley, but it's still a statistically significant and very present penalty for hitting into that hazard. I don't think we'll hear anyone shouting "Get in the bunker!" to a pulled approach in 2014, as we hear on many other Tour courses, and I think most players would tell you that they definitely want to stay out of there.

Just because I don't want my ball to go there does not, in my opinion, make it a penal hazard. I don't want to go in the rough; the rough is not penal. I don't want to go in any bunker; not every bunker is penal. Again, it's subjective based on one's talent, isn't it?

[Mark Saltzman]

David, I get what you're saying. But you're talking about how it's relatively easy to make bogey from that bunker. Isn't that a one stroke penalty over the par you might expect to be able to save from short grass? How much of a penalty do you think the bunker gives vs. the player who simply misses the green on short grass? Does a half stroke sound fair?

That might not be as penal as the Road Hole bunker or the bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley, but it's still a statistically significant and very present penalty for hitting into that hazard. I don't think we'll hear anyone shouting "Get in the bunker!" to a pulled approach in 2014, as we hear on many other Tour courses, and I think most players would tell you that they definitely want to stay out of there.

Just because I don't want my ball to go there does not, in my opinion, make it a penal hazard. I don't want to go in the rough; the rough is not penal. I don't want to go in any bunker; not every bunker is penal. Again, it's subjective based on one's talent, isn't it?

No. 

All hazards make the next shot a more difficult one, but that does not make the hazard a 'penal hazard'.

There are penal hazards and strategic hazards.  Penal refers not to the degree which the hazard penalizes the golfer but to its intent. 

[Mike_Trenham]

Redan holes and Short holes are not defined by the hazards but by the green surfaces and recoveries or two putt challenges.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Doesn't Penal hazard mean guaranteed lost ball or unplayable lie?
Dense trees, gorse, water, OOB - no escape. isn't that the extent of it?

I am yet to experience some of the famous really, nasty deep or coffin type bunkers of PVGC - but they are still escapable, backwards, sideways, etc aren't they?

So, penal - no escape, dead, schickered, stuffed.

So, Barnbougle 7 is then a great hole without a penal hazard.

[Jason Thurman]

All hazards make the next shot a more difficult one, but that does not make the hazard a 'penal hazard'.

There are penal hazards and strategic hazards.  Penal refers not to the degree which the hazard penalizes the golfer but to its intent. 

I think that's where people on this board get confused, and where I think you and several others on this thread are confused. Hazard PLACEMENT can be either penal or strategic. The hazard itself, though, can be penal (one that extracts a significant penalty) even if its placement is strategic. If you don't think the Road Hole bunker is penal just because it's in a strategic location, you should probably, as David Whittmer suggested, speak with David Duval.

Not all hazards make the next shot more difficult. Many players prefer to be in the sand as opposed to thick rough or tightly cropped short grass if the bunker is benign enough. Perhaps we're just talking about semantics, but I consider a hazard penal if it's severe enough to extract at least about a half-shot penalty vs. the area directly around it. I consider a hazard's PLACEMENT penal if it's placed in a place that punishes a poorly executed shot rather than a poorly judged shot.

If you have different words for what I call a "penal" hazard (regardless of its placement), I'd love to speak your language because it's a constant point of confusion on this board. But I think the original post on this thread was written with the idea that a penal hazard is one that extracts a penalty rather than one that's simply placed in a penal location, and I'm sticking with that idea unless David Elvins corrects me.

[Jason Thurman]

David, I get what you're saying. But you're talking about how it's relatively easy to make bogey from that bunker. Isn't that a one stroke penalty over the par you might expect to be able to save from short grass? How much of a penalty do you think the bunker gives vs. the player who simply misses the green on short grass? Does a half stroke sound fair?

That might not be as penal as the Road Hole bunker or the bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley, but it's still a statistically significant and very present penalty for hitting into that hazard. I don't think we'll hear anyone shouting "Get in the bunker!" to a pulled approach in 2014, as we hear on many other Tour courses, and I think most players would tell you that they definitely want to stay out of there.

Just because I don't want my ball to go there does not, in my opinion, make it a penal hazard. I don't want to go in the rough; the rough is not penal. I don't want to go in any bunker; not every bunker is penal. Again, it's subjective based on one's talent, isn't it?

David, what would make the bunker penal in your eyes? Does it need to be deeper to be considered penal?

Thinking about the shot from that position, most of the challenge is due to the green rather than the bunker itself. Is that why you don't consider it penal? That makes a lot of sense to me actually.

[Matthew Mollica]

Woodlands 4 and Kingston Heath 17 ?

[David Whitmer]

David, what would make the bunker penal in your eyes? Does it need to be deeper to be considered penal?

Thinking about the shot from that position, most of the challenge is due to the green rather than the bunker itself. Is that why you don't consider it penal? That makes a lot of sense to me actually.

Yes, actually. To me, a hazard is penal if it severely penalizes a golfer, leading to a potentially high score. I don't think that bunker at the fifth hole on Pinehurst #2 is penal, but the green is the major defense.

[David Whitmer]

All hazards make the next shot a more difficult one, but that does not make the hazard a 'penal hazard'.

There are penal hazards and strategic hazards.  Penal refers not to the degree which the hazard penalizes the golfer but to its intent. 

 I totally agree with the first sentence. Not every hazard is penal.

We'll agree to disagree on the second sentence. I think a penal hazard absolutely refers to the degree which the hazard penalizes the golfer. The greater the potential penalty, the more penal the hazard is.

[David_Elvins]

I like #6 at the Creek:



View from behind the green.

Thanks for posting David.  That is exactly what I was after and I can't believe I hadn't thought of it before.  What an amazing green complex.  Possibly my favorite.

I haven't played "Foxy"  but from what i have seen, it looks like another excellent nomination.  

[Matthew Mollica]

Do NSW #5 and RA #3 have what you would term penal hazards David?

[David_Elvins]

Do NSW #5 and RA #3 have what you would term penal hazards David?

Good question Matt, I am not sure how you would classify RA#3.  There is a lot of gunch very close to the pin.  Woodlands 4 is one I was thinking of.  A fantastic hole and another one that is hard to define.  It is very difficult and easy to ring up a big number but not sure you could identify specific 'no-go' areas. 

I think there is always going to be a bit of grey area in what people would term a penal hazard, as has been discussed on this thread.  But I am interested in finding out whether you can make a great hole without extreme or difficult features, and if so, how.  There are a few examples on this thread but not many!

[Kyle Henderson]

IMHO, Ballyneal #7 has at least one bunker that is quite penal.

#5 at Pinehurst #2.

#7 at Ballyneal.

Both have bunkers, but none that I would consider to be penal bunkers.

As a side note, my boss at the golf club where I used to work would always describe the golf course, which was very difficult, as "penile" rather than "penal." I kept begging him to learn the difference, but it never sunk in.

[John Kirk]

#5 at Pinehurst #2.

#7 at Ballyneal.

Both have bunkers, but none that I would consider to be penal bunkers.

As a side note, my boss at the golf club where I used to work would always describe the golf course, which was very difficult, as "penile" rather than "penal." I kept begging him to learn the difference, but it never sunk in.

Similarly, I believe the big left fairway bunker on Ballyneal #7 is death, maybe an average of a one stroke penalty.