[Kirk Moon]

you had me until blue jeans.

other than that, i think you are right on the money.

That's funny.  My first thought was "Amen" when I saw the blue jeans comment. I'm 62, but I live in blue jeans at home and would love to be able to buzz out to the club and hit a few balls on the range, practice putting or grab a beer and a bite to eat in the clubhouse without having to change clothing. 

[Dan Herrmann]

What the heck is wrong with jeans?  Most clubs in the Northwestern US allow jeans from November thru March due to the rainy weather and resultant muddy conditions.

I just bought Wrangler jeans at the VF Outlet in Reading PA, so please don't tell me my $15.95 jeans cost more than a nice $80 pair of slacks.

[Mark Johnson]

What the heck is wrong with jeans?  Most clubs in the Northwestern US allow jeans from November thru March due to the rainy weather and resultant muddy conditions.

I just bought Wrangler jeans at the VF Outlet in Reading PA, so please don't tell me my $15.95 jeans cost more than a nice $80 pair of slacks.

I guess I am a bit of a traditionalist here, believing that at least some level of dress up shows respect for the game.    That said, i have no issues with northern clubs who allow jeans when it is 45 degrees or less.

[Jeff Shelman]

Mark,

To me there is a huge difference between jeans on the course and jeans in the grill.

I don't like jeans on the course. I have zero problem with jeans in the clubhouse.

[Josh Stevens]

Three issues - cost, cost and cost


To be throwing around figures like $30k to join and $5-6k per year to be a membe of a 2nd tier club that is only open half the year as a bargain is your one and only problem.  Why does it cost so much???

You could join Royal Melbourne (well, assuming you could) for a fraction of this and play all year.

Rules of thumb are to pay no more than $100 per week for golf, and a joining fee of no more than 5x that.  That will cover every single club in Australia

[BHoover]

Three issues - cost, cost and cost


To be throwing around figures like $30k to join and $5-6k per year to be a membe of a 2nd tier club that is only open half the year as a bargain is your one and only problem.  Why does it cost so much???

You could join Royal Melbourne (well, assuming you could) for a fraction of this and play all year.

Rules of thumb are to pay no more than $100 per week for golf, and a joining fee of no more than 5x that.  That will cover every single club in Australia

Not only do you guys in Australia have the cost structure figured out, you also have the absolute best courses in the world (at least based on what I've seen from the confines on my living room on television). Very jealous. 

[Roger Wolfe]

Some clarification... in regards to Carolina...

Regular dues are $350... Junior dues are $296

Jeans are only allowed for certain events.  They are not allowed on the golf course, practice facilities or for regular dining.

I agree with Aussie dues... but remember initiation fees are simply a measure of a club's market value... similar to a stock price.  If you can stay at capacity... whatever you can get is the right price! 😄

[PCCraig]

I said this earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it here again. Thank you for all the comments on this very helpful thread.

Just this past Saturday I was able to play with two prospective members, one 24 year old and one ~55 year old. After reading this thread and thinking about the issues quite a bit for this club committee, it was interesting hearing the different thoughts between the two. The 55 year old was mostly in the camp of "I don't really care about anything but the golf course" and the 24 year old cared about the golf course as well but also really liked the pool, fitness, clubhouse, etc. that came with it.

Also building off the 24 year old's comments, I think a major issue with these clubs is that many younger people feel that while the set-ups are great, they aren't going to feel welcome from the other, older, members. While I haven't found that to be a problem at my home course, I can understand how some memberships might be chilly to a younger guy or gal who wants to play golf early, in gym shoes, and a cart.

After talking to the 55 year old, I realized that it's unwise to join someplace (regardless of age) because of one facet of a club. As mentioned in earlier posts, if you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper. It's heading into the bar after the round for a beer and seeing (and knowing) the groups that played around you. It's playing in season long events, making friends, and getting together with them later on a social level. So while I tried to convey that to the 55 year old, I'm guessing he will join another club down in town which offers less amenities, is golf only, and is cheaper to join.

[Ken Moum]

Re. jeans, My brother is a member at Albuquerque CC, and one of the first times I visited after he moved there was in Dec. I said, "I don't suppose I can wear jeans. Or do you allow them in the winter?"

He said, "This is the West, you can wear jean all year."

I've been there several times since, and not once did I think, "Ewww, this place is low class."

If your membership is comprised of golfers, they won't be wearing unacceptable attire, even if it's denim.

K

[Roger Wolfe]

Great points Mr. Craig.

You bring up what is the core problem with a lot of full service clubs.  From my experience I believe now, more than ever, that a club should offer only what folks in the surrounding community CANNOT get anywhere else.  When you offer everything... you run the risk of your dues structure starting to alienate the two demographics you mentioned in your post.  It becomes too expensive for the 24 year old.  It becomes frustrating for the 55 year old who only wants golf and to hang in the grill with his buddies.

If your dues are only supporting golf, a "non swim team" swimming pool and a modest clubhouse then you can satisfy the needs of a much greater percentage of members because the things you do not offer (fitness, tennis, fine dining - FTF) can be easily found elsewhere.  Those who want fine dining can go to a new restaurant once per week.  Those who want tennis and fitness can join the YMCA, enroll their kids in the swim team, and play tennis for free at the local park.  If your dues are low enough to where joining your club PLUS a swim and raquet club is more cost effective than joining a full service club it makes all the sense in the world.  The older member who does not want FTF is satisfied his dues are only covering the things he wants and you will retain him as he continues to age and not want everything offered at a full service club.

Until a child reaches school age, swimming is about paddling around and playing and swim lessons and quality family recreation.  It's about meeting your husband at noon on a Saturday after he's played golf in the morning.  It's about having fun at a place with friends where you feel safe and you can relax.  That is something you CANNOT get at public pools and the YMCA.

Playing public golf has serious drawbacks as well.  Conditioning, pace of play, accessibility and travel are all major factors.  Private golf is a wonderful thing and only those who have been a member of a private club can understand that.  Dollar per round is never a good way to weigh private vs public golf.

This theory does not apply to a lot of small town clubs where FTF is unavailable.  When you are the only game in town, it makes sense to have tennis, fitness, fine dining and a swim team.  Clubs in urban and suburban areas, however, really should take a hard look before investing significant capital into non-golf amenities.  They also need to pay close attention to the sometimes astronomical increase in operating and payroll that usually come with a new venue.  Does the ROI justify the investment?  

There are a lot of horror stories out there where members have lost their clubs to the bank or an ownership group has swooped in and purchased it for nothing after a new clubhouse or sports facility crippled the dues structure and members resigned and new members would not join.  There are some great successess, too.  The key is to know your club, know your membership and know your market.  Narrow your focus and hopefully you will be able to retain your current members and attract the young folks!

[Dan Kelly]

As the ~55 yr old myself I can say that being sent out with some ~25 yr old kid when I have taken the time to visit the club would be a deal breaker on the first tee.  People my age need to be introduced to our peer group or a highly ranked member of the staff.  Why would I invest in a club that doesn't have the time to invest in me.

Would you send your dad to meet this guy?  http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickccraig

John --

I'd be perfectly happy to send my dad to meet this guy, and my dad would be perfectly happy to meet this guy. And this guy would be perfectly happy to meet my dad -- a lousy golfer, but a helluva guy.

Sad to say, my dad died 42 years ago -- at seven years younger than I am now. (An aside: He had JUST signed up as a Charter Member of Olympic Hills GC in Eden Prairie, Minnesota -- a course unfinished when he died. It would have been his first golf-club membership. He never played a hole there.)

Would I (~59) object to being sent to meet this guy? No, I would not. Why should I object to meeting any of the guys, young or old, with whom I'm considering playing most of my golf? And this guy, from my direct experience, is good company on the golf course. I can't imagine writing him off on the first tee, just because he has the good fortune to be young.

Dan

P.S., to Pat: I disagree with your view that a person who wants golf from a golf club, and little else (maybe a beer afterward; maybe a meal once in a while), misses the whole point. Maybe you would be missing the whole point for you if you wanted only golf from a golf club -- but I'd urge you to consider this: That's only one way to look at the world. There are others. A club that wants to thrive should accommodate at least some of those other ways (IMO).

[Mark Pritchett]

I would like for Roger to come and run my club! 

[Tyler Kearns]

Three issues - cost, cost and cost


To be throwing around figures like $30k to join and $5-6k per year to be a membe of a 2nd tier club that is only open half the year as a bargain is your one and only problem.  Why does it cost so much???

You could join Royal Melbourne (well, assuming you could) for a fraction of this and play all year.

Rules of thumb are to pay no more than $100 per week for golf, and a joining fee of no more than 5x that.  That will cover every single club in Australia

Josh,

By comparison, golf memberships in Australia are a steal to those of us in North America. Isn't a major factor for keeping your dues low, similar to the British Isles, is allowing overseas visitors to play your wonderful golf courses, at a premium fee? This practice subsidizes the memberships of the locals, keeping things very affordable even for younger people. This type of access just doesn't happen in the US.

TK

[PCCraig]

P.S., to Pat: I disagree with your view that a person who wants golf from a golf club, and little else (maybe a beer afterward; maybe a meal once in a while), misses the whole point. Maybe you would be missing the whole point for you if you wanted only golf from a golf club -- but I'd urge you to consider this: That's only one way to look at the world. There are others. A club that wants to thrive should accommodate at least some of those other ways (IMO).

Dan,

Thanks for the kind words.

I don't argue that clubs should make accommodations for different types of members (current or potential). There are different types of clubs for different types of members too. The point I was trying to make (maybe unsuccessfully) was that joining any club for one particular reason isn't always the right mindset. It doesn't matter if the place is golf-only like Windsong or full country club like Interlachen, playing golf (or whatever) is only part of the experience, IMO. It's the people and the little intangible things that make joining a club a worthwhile endeavor.

[Brent Hutto]

After talking to the 55 year old, I realized that it's unwise to join someplace (regardless of age) because of one facet of a club. As mentioned in earlier posts, if you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper.

As a golfer who is entirely comfortable "missing the point" I would only want to add that it really ought to be possible to attract members who get "the point" and with only modest additional effort avoid alienating those of us who fail to do so!

What if joining a club is the only reliable to have access to the following?

-One among the top echelon of golf courses within an hour's drive radius.

-A place to be able to enjoy a walking game, no carts required, any time on any day even on short notice.

-The pace of play, lack of distractions and consideration from your fellow golfers that are so lacking at my public courses.

And what if a prospective member is able to afford the financial cost of membership but not willing, interested or amenable to persuasion to join in for swimming, parties, banquets, dining, dancing, easter egg hunts or any other non-golf activity. Surely it's a bit bloody-minded to insist that members "get it" as a condition of membership, no? I would think an attitude excluding such "trunk slammers" is counter productive unless the club is always full with a waiting list and never in need of new blood.

[Tim Gavrich]

Interesting variation in reactions to Pat's post. I thought that bit about "missing the point" more meant that that 55 year old who's only interested in the golf course and, occasionally, dining facilities would be happier at a "pure" golf club than at Pat's club, which I gather is more a country club. That seems fair enough to me; that individual would look at his bill each month and wonder to himself at the extent to which he was subsidizing other facets of the club. He should ideally project into the future in that manner before making the decision to join a country club when it's not an ideal fit. And since he's a 55 year old who has the means to join a country club, he should be savvy enough to make that self-judgment. I agree with Mr. Craig.

[Brent Hutto]

Well Tim to the extent it's about wanting the club to be a good match to a prospective member, your point is well taken.

Without knowing the particulars I can't really speculate about Pat's club or the area in which he lives. Sometimes, what might appear to be a case of a member paying for a bunch of stuff he'd resent supporting (and hey, I'd gladly be a member of a course with no clubhouse at all!) is really a matter of assigning a very high value to the golf course and the golf experience at that club.

If one has sufficient means, it could make sense to join an all-inclusive country club with no intent on fully partaking in its manifold benefits. In some places, that all-inclusive socially oriented club might just happen to own a golf course far more attractive (to a given member) than anything else in the area.

[Dan Kelly]

Interesting variation in reactions to Pat's post. I thought that bit about "missing the point" more meant that that 55 year old who's only interested in the golf course and, occasionally, dining facilities would be happier at a "pure" golf club than at Pat's club, which I gather is more a country club. That seems fair enough to me; that individual would look at his bill each month and wonder to himself at the extent to which he was subsidizing other facets of the club. He should ideally project into the future in that manner before making the decision to join a country club when it's not an ideal fit. And since he's a 55 year old who has the means to join a country club, he should be savvy enough to make that self-judgment. I agree with Mr. Craig.

If that's what Pat had written (emoticon omitted), I'd have agreed with him, too!

What he did write was a much more sweeping opinion about clubs generally: "If you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper. It's heading into the bar after the round for a beer and seeing (and knowing) the groups that played around you. It's playing in season long events, making friends, and getting together with them later on a social level."

Slamming the trunk, and not meaning to be anti-social,
DK

[PCCraig]

Interesting variation in reactions to Pat's post. I thought that bit about "missing the point" more meant that that 55 year old who's only interested in the golf course and, occasionally, dining facilities would be happier at a "pure" golf club than at Pat's club, which I gather is more a country club. That seems fair enough to me; that individual would look at his bill each month and wonder to himself at the extent to which he was subsidizing other facets of the club. He should ideally project into the future in that manner before making the decision to join a country club when it's not an ideal fit. And since he's a 55 year old who has the means to join a country club, he should be savvy enough to make that self-judgment. I agree with Mr. Craig.

If that's what Pat had written (emoticon omitted), I'd have agreed with him, too!

What he did write was a much more sweeping opinion about clubs generally: "If you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper. It's heading into the bar after the round for a beer and seeing (and knowing) the groups that played around you. It's playing in season long events, making friends, and getting together with them later on a social level."

Slamming the trunk, and not meaning to be anti-social,
DK

Edit: My main point, which is being misconstrued in many ways, is that you should join someplace for the facilities, any facility (golf, pool, dining, whatever) because they don't make the club, the people do. A lot of guys, like our prospective member, aren't necessarily looking at the big picture and the intangibles. If I'm being insensitive to "trunk slammers" that isn't my intent, only to say that different people (and different age groups) have different mindsets when looking at new places to play.

[Jeff Shelman]

Pat,

I hope you sent the guy who just wants to play golf our way. We'd appreciate that.

[PCCraig]

Pat,

I hope you sent the guy who just wants to play golf our way. We'd appreciate that.

I did. I would honestly encourage anyone who asked me about courses/clubs in the cities to look at different places. I know he is going to be looking at your place, and I told him specifically about you and how much you've enjoyed it so far at Midland.

[MWagner]

Gentleman,

Interesting topic.  I am 32 and on the hunt for a new membership where I spend most of my time on the road, Houston.  For me, I love the wow factor...I love when your customer walks into your club and cant stay focused because he is engaged in his surrounding.  Wifi, steam room, wrap around bar, cigar room, card rooms, shoe shine guy, historical pictures, books, and even Green Jackets (I have seen two here in Houston framed from Harmon at Lochinvar and Palmer at The Woodlands) but they dont mean one thing if that wow factor is not followed onto the short grass.  I joined my first course at 28....18 very unigue holes laid out through creeks and ponds and rolling hills in the Philadelphia suburbs...an amazing course.  Every guest I took there always walked off 18 with a Wow comment.  Forget that the club house was outdated, the old guard was 50%+ of the membership, the President got arrested for theft, the GM left a few days later, the club was upside down, fist fights in the big money card games......Honestly, I didnt care.  I always could find a competitve game, my friends and family always loved the course and the food was fantastic.

Finally, thanks for welcoming to my new club, here at GCA...this is my first Post.

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Haven't read the recent replies, but one area, where almost all clubs have failed, is pace of play.

Most clubs have allowed pace of play to deteriorate over the years.

Young members, with young families, need to play early and quickly.

However, it's difficult for clubs, who have let pace of play slide, to suddenly get play down to 3:00 to 3:30 at the longest, and therein lies the conflict that clubs won't be able to correct the time of play any time soon

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat - difficult to disagree but often it's the younger players who fail to get around quickly, lining up every putt from 3 sides, peering through rangefinders and pacing distances.

I was at a major foursomes tournament earlier this year. On a par 3 the partners walked forward and were greenside. Player A hit to around 6 feet, B nearly holed it and was a foot away for a certain 2. A's partner hadn't hit his putt in the time it took A to walk the 150yds from tee to green. Bloody disgrace they should have been DQ'd.

[Brent Hutto]

Mark,

There's a fellow at my club who's the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet but he's a human rain delay on the greens. Not particularly fast or slow from tee to green but just takes all day to putt.

One afternoon I was playing by myself and had just hit my tee shot on a Par 3. This fellow caught up to me in a cart (he generally walks) and seemed to be in a hurry. He said he was trying to get a full 18 but had to be home by 6pm. So I told him to hit up and then go ahead without me.

He hit his ball to about 10 feet and zoomed off in the cart. I walked up near the green, went ahead and chipped and two-putted in the time it took him to clean his ball and read the putt from all fourteen sides of the hole. Finally he missed the putt, marked the 18-incher and went through a complete ball-cleaning and reading ritual. Damndest thing I ever saw.

Tapped that in and trotted off saying "Thanks, gotta run!".

I honestly don't know how someone arrives at that style of play.

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