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Dan Herrmann

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2012, 08:44:42 PM »
Reading thru the posts, I think it boils down to affordability and an environment that would appeal to an under 30.  Hit him with unexpected costs and he will quickly leave. Simplify the bill.  Make it fun. 

Mark Johnson

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2012, 10:37:59 PM »
This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.

Next time I see you around riding with a forecaddy I'll remind you of the 3 poor souls you're stiffing.  We have to take the same forecaddie with 4 walking members....so save the lecture.

Well said!  But one can't shout the values of walking and a great caddie program and then pay a $20 trail fee while a kid waits for a bag. Sorry for the lecture, which I should have avoided, but you're at an Evans Scholars club. You should not be carrying your bag when caddies are available. It's unseemly.

agreed, with the caveat of during peak golf times.   I have no issues with someone carrying at any club at say 4pm .


Dan Kelly

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #102 on: October 05, 2012, 11:20:44 PM »

I wonder how much of the issue comes down to location.    From what I have seen, younger professionals and families are more likely to be settling on the minneapolis side, rather the st. paul side.    I know if it was 10-15 minutes closer for me, I would definitely consider joining.


I suspect it has more to do with:

If you have only 21 members under 35, members under 35 might feel a little ... alien to the culture of the club? Birds of a feather flock together, don'tcha know.

And: Your monthlies, once you've passed through the coveted years of "younger," are very high, it seems to me. They've deterred me, at any rate.

But to get back to Mark's point, and to the point I tried to raise earlier: It seems to me that you could get a lot of Golf Only members from both sides of the river. After all, Town & Country might be in St. Paul, but it's closer to DT Mpls. than it is to DT St. Paul.


"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #103 on: October 06, 2012, 01:44:29 AM »
Terry - for me a caddie is a nice treat not a part of my essential golfing expenses. If supermarket A let's you buy your groceries, push the trolley with the goods to the car, put them in the trunk and drive off whereas souermarket B requires you to take a kid to push the trolley around the supermarket, out to the car and load the trunk for a compulsory $15 which one does the most business?

Requiring unnecessary and expensive labour crushed the US and European automotive and clothing industries, manufacturers went to cheaper markets. Isn't golf doing the same requiring caddies and requiring F&B spend?

I was going to make the same point but you put it better.

Artificially protecting jobs providing a service for which demand is declining cannot work. Competition will ensure that customers go elsewhere.

Sean_A

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #104 on: October 06, 2012, 04:23:38 AM »
There is no question the divide between club models in the US and GB&I is deep.  One model trumps bare bones and the other covers a wide range of extras, however, I think it is fair to say that either way recruiting young people is very difficult.  I am starting to think that those who want to belong to clubs are going to have to either pay more, make sacrifices (maybe less extras and more tee times given over to non-members) or think about recruiting, dare I say it, more women.  Who knows, it may require all three to remain viable. 

I think these are times where cut rate memberships may not be the way to go.  Maybe its best to ride out the storm (or at least try to) before giving the kitchen sink away.  Once clubs start cutting dues and eliminating initiation fees I think it sends a wrong message and also is risky for the club as they are essentially leveraging the future.  I know what I am suggesting ultimately means there will be course closures, but at least in the England, now is the time to consider doing just that - while there is a hot building push going on. 

At some point club golfers have to realize that golf is very expensive no matter how one breaks it down and it doesn't have wide appeal in terms of private membership.  We can either change what it is we expect from private membership or pay more - it could well be both are will be necessary. 

As a believer in keeping the game cheap, I agree entirely with Chappers and Brian.  Caddies are a serious luxury that very few golfers can afford (or perhaps more importantly are willing to afford).  Nobody should be rebuked for not wanting to lay out the expense - unseemly or not.     

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Grant Saunders

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2012, 05:26:03 AM »
Having younger people in decision making roles within a club is something i see as important. A group of 60 year olds sitting around trying to figure out how what younger folks are looking for is never going to be as successful as having someone from that target demographic there to speak first hand. This approach will however require a fair degree of open mindness to new ways of doing some things and golf clubs are notoriously reluctant in this area.

As a question for those that have the benefit of having being part of clubs over a longer period: what percentage of club members have occupied the younger age bracket in years past? Im not talking juniors and school kids, Im wondering about the 20 - 35 year age bracket.

I somehow think this group has probably always been fairly under represented and that lamenting the low numbers we see today it isnt really a new phenomenon. Golf has always been a sport graduated to by many people who are seeking a more sedate sporting pursuit upon winding down from something a little more physical. I personally feel that there are less people taking up the game in the 35 - 45 age group than perhaps there once was and that this was an area responsible for large numbers entering the game and joining clubs.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 05:28:32 AM by Grant Saunders »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #106 on: October 06, 2012, 08:02:37 AM »

As a question for those that have the benefit of having being part of clubs over a longer period: what percentage of club members have occupied the younger age bracket in years past? Im not talking juniors and school kids, Im wondering about the 20 - 35 year age bracket.


Grant,

It was probably 10 years ago that I was asked to be on on a committee for the purpose of attracting younger members. I resigned after the second meeting as there was clearly a group think mentality and they had no interest in changing a thing. The Chairman said something to the effect of "Mike, you have to give it some time", and I simply chose to spend time with my family rather than a bunch of guys who were never going change.

The difference today is clubs NEED younger members. Ten years ago, not so much. If I was a younger guy now approached by the Board, I would say something like "Make me Chairman of the Admissions Committee, and give me 10 memberships in a new membership category with restructured financial terms, full rights and I have total control of who I invite to those memberships, in writing."

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2012, 08:55:28 AM »
One factor that I don't think have been mentioned is the fact that some clubs say they need 5 letters of recommendation from current members.  A 25 year old new to town isn't exactly going to have many contacts with guys over 65 that make up the membership of the club.

These days, a club should take anybody that has an interest, has a good credit score, and loves golf.  Obviously, this doesn't apply to clubs with a 10 year waiting list, but those are extremely rare nowadays.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2012, 09:36:03 AM »
Do you know the average age of a member of your club? I have heard a lot of courses where its over 60. I can only deduce that clubs with this situation  are heading for the icebergs. 90% of our members are under 60 and our averaged age is 47. 4% are over 70, 5% are over 65, 79% are under 55, 64% are under 50, 49% are under 45 35% are under 40, 22% are under 35.

Only 12% are under 30 and this band has incredible movements in new members joining and leaving (often quite suddenly) the problem is very simple really.....its girls and they have 'things' that attract our wannabe golfers away from the game.

I dont see the US Golf buisness model working into the future, friendships around the corner will be lesser with the internet where we are all likely to make friends, relationships, date and the younger generation will marry people from ....'miles away'. I dont see people paying the huge initiation drops with the uncertainty and I agree with a posts that want to join a golf club to play golf. Add ons will put more people off that attract.

In the UK I am guessing 75% of clubs dont have a joining fee anymore, perhaps 10 years ago it was 25%. New members really hate paying this, we charge a joining fee, we spread it over 5 or so years but I reckon I could double the amount of new members with no joining fee and I lose potential new members to other clubs that dont charge one.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

C. Squier

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2012, 09:39:57 AM »
I'll gladly play a public course over paying thousands of dollars to belong to a place where I am pressurised to do things against my will. Cheating a kid out of a loop because someone prefers to carry their bag or may be a little tight on funds? Seems a little perverse to me - it's a free market, supply and demand - maybe he thinks the caddies at Olympia are rubbish? There are a lot of disengaged and incompetent caddies out there, I am sure you have noticed.

Before I become the poster boy for the anti caddie movement:  I enjoy using our caddies at OFCC and do so the vast majority of the time.  However, I also enjoy a late afternoon round as a single with my own bag slung over my shoulder....perhaps it does remind me of the time when I spent every waking summertime day at my local muni.  

The Evans Foundation is a wonderful organization which I support both by utilizing their services and by writing an annual check.  I've yet to not enjoy a round with a local caddie and have the ability to do so every time I go out and play.  

I think that covers all the bases  8)

Jason Topp

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #110 on: October 07, 2012, 12:23:34 AM »
I have been interested in this thread. 

One category of golfer that seems to get lost in the shuffle is the high school competitor who does not play competitive college golf or does so for a year or two.  I've seen it time and time again where a kid is golf nut, improves dramatically until around age 16 and then bumps into a point where improvement does not come as easily and the gap between the individual and a really good player becomes obvious.  I would guess that 50% of the people I have known that fall into that category drop out of the game during college as it becomes difficult to enjoy a casual version of the game, it is expensive and such individuals are dispersed enough that it is not always easy to find the right playing companions.

I've got to think there is a way to tap into those individuals.  Most still love the game.  They are potential club champions (particularly at any club where Pat is the champ) and, with some maturity, potential real leaders in a golf club. 

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2012, 02:33:42 AM »
Terry - does that mean the member who doesn't stop for a beer after his round or take a shower as he's in a hurry mean he's cheating the barman and locker room attendant out of a tip?

I do not know the ins and outs of the Evans Scholarship but could a member make a donation (tax) of say $5 if he plays without a caddie towards the fund?
Cave Nil Vino

Ian Andrew

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #112 on: October 07, 2012, 10:30:22 AM »
The costs are too high (for services, caddies, agronomics, etc.) to go occasionally.
My generation is far more active in family life.

You must attract my entire family to get me to join.
I have the income and love of the game, but I can't justify the expense when there are other activities we can do together for less.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #113 on: October 07, 2012, 01:00:08 PM »
Excuse me if this point has already been made as I haven't read the entire thread.
But one piece of advice I'd give to members of a club who feel like they need to attract younger members is to be sure you actually want the members and not just their dues. If you want younger members but the old guard has the all the prime tee times and other parts of the club locked up, don't expect new members to sign up and wait their turn.
I've seen this when a club decided to open up some times to the public because they needed the money, but didn't really want the "outsiders" on the property. Didn't take long for the "outsiders" to pick up on the member's attitudes and the program eventually failed. Clubs need revenue and young new members bring that, but they will not stick around, or bring in more friends if they are treated like "step children". The old member might have paid 50K to join and the new guy might be only paying 10K (and paying over time), but that's a macro economic issue, and the kiss of death is treating the new guy like he is a lessor member.

Sam Morrow

Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2012, 12:19:30 AM »
Maybe the issue isn't attracting younger members but actually member retention and new members from other clubs, new residents, etc. I hear clubs talk about being worried that the average member age is 50 something or 60 something. That's not old and folks in good health play often times until the very end.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2012, 08:25:51 AM »
The "younger" member is substantively different, today, than generations ago.

In the 60's, younger members teed off around 9:00, after the regular or older members teed off.
They played 18, had lunch, then went back out and played another 18 before the women teed off at 2:00.

Today, clubs have had to open earlier and accommodate earlier tee times specifically for younger members, who are now teeing off at 6:30-7:00, so that they can get home by 10:30-11:00 in order to "share" family responsibilities. 

This has caused clubs to experience different degrees of stress.
The course has to be prepared earlier and weekend local disturbing the peace statutes prevent clubs from mowing greens to their desired daily height in preparation for the days play.

It's also caused a compression in tee times.
Now, more and more clubs are teeing off both the 1st and 10th tees for about two hours then shutting down to permit the "crossover",
So, members can no longer come up and tee off at their leisure.
Designated starting times prevent that.

As a result of "required tee times", clubs have lost the sense of general commraderie, where members picked up games randomly, even over breakfast on the morning of play.   Now, with required tee times, games are made well in advance and there's a tendency to form regular games which result in cliques, which isn't in the clubs best interest.

Dinning facilities have to be open earlier, adding to labor costs for the most non-profitable meal of the day.

Their early utilization patterns result in them not using the club for lunch or dinner.

To meet their minimums, they usually attend specialty nights, like late Sunday afternoon Bar-B-Q's.

In addition, you don't seem to see them playing later in the afternoons on weekdays because they're attending their kids after school activities, or, as a dual income family, they're tending to their "shared" responsibilities.

Their utilization patterns are in conflict with the structure and historic operation of the club.

The best source of young members is other young members, their peers.

But let's not forget, being a member of a local club is a luxury.

Let's not also forget that if you cater to the younger member, you don't want to alienate your established member,
Neither I, nor my peer group wants to have lunch sitting next to a screaming kid, nor do we want to talk in whispered tones, lest some couples take offense to the topics we're discussing or the language we use.

Junior members, the sons and daughters of existing members used to be the lifeblood of the club's future.
Now, club's need to broaden their appeal without eroding their core values or displacing their long time members.

Clearly it's a challenge, culturally and financially.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2012, 10:04:25 AM »
Well said Pat.

 

Carl Johnson

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2012, 08:21:11 PM »
[quote author=Patrick_Mucci link=topic=53714.msg1236265#msg1236265 date=13496991

The "younger" member is substantively different, today, than generations ago. . . .

The best source of young members is other young members, their peers. . . .
[/quote]

Pat has it.  What do the younger members want? Look to those you have.  Are you satisfying their interests?  All in, it's a social thing.  Make the younger members happy and they will recruit their friends, their peers.

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #118 on: October 10, 2012, 02:58:01 PM »
My wife and I joined a club in the last few months.  We are both in our 20's, both working and without kids.  We move every 3-4 years so when joining we were basically making a long term decision.  Our reason for joining basically it boiled down to the fact that we could see ourselves there when we retire until we die due to a great course and what we considered great value.  Until we spend more time there the club offered a lower cost social membership and then an arrangement with numerous reciprocals around the country for a nominal fee.  If it weren't for the reciprocals I don't think my wife would have agreed to joining.

I recently read nearly 33% of the members are over 70, and less than 14% are under 50.  I imagine there are only a few of us in our 20's.  Apparently like most clubs they are trying to attract younger members, but we weren't recruited or offered any special packages.

Sinclair Eaddy

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2012, 04:30:00 PM »
PCraig: I belong to a club in Baltimore that initiated a summer membership program that gave full prvileges for young members and their families from May through Labor Day. There was no intiation fee and they paid reduced dues for the program. They were given member numbers and full charging privileges with no minimum. The club conducted several family nights and special events for families with young kids. The benefit of this structure is that it gave new young members and the club a test run. The club is able to evaluate if the prospective member is a good fit with the club and the prospect has time to meet other members and officers of the club before going through the formal membership process with letters, meetings etc. If the club is not a good fit for the prospect, for whatever reason--dues, lack of use, rule restrictions-- it becomes very clear during the trial run. The way to run this though is to only allow the summer membership for one season, and then have the prospect make decision about membership. The dues paid during the summer program are fully credited to the regular intiation fee and the prospect is given the option to spread the remaining intiation with no interest.

Mike Hendren

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #120 on: October 10, 2012, 04:43:12 PM »
Here in Germany initiation fees or other long-term commitments are on the way out. The world has changed.

Young professionals cannot expect to live and work at the same place for many years to come. The company that you join as a young man or woman and that allows you to settle down with family does not exist anymore. In fact, nowadays most companies are younger and will die sooner than most of the people working there.

There is your answer for attracting younger members. Don't tie them down. Make it possible for them to leave on reasonably short notice.

Ulrich

Ulrich, this same dynamic is in large part responsible for the shift away from homeownership in the U. S.  Notwithstanding record low interest rates, the 25-35 crowd is not interested in  homeownership, having seen their homeowner friends learn the hard way that real estate values do in fact decline and an underwater mortgagte is a great impediment to relocation.  

Like home ownership, club membership might no longer be the American dream.

Radical thought of the day:  Wasn't the initiation fee originally intended to capitalize a new club?  Or at least weed out the riff-raff?  Has its time passed altogether?  Why not take the previous year's operating expenses plus a modest capital reserve plus a 5% inflation factor, divide by the number of members, and then bill each member 1/12th of the total each month of the following year.   Then have a resignation fee equal to 3 months' dues to mitigate attrition.  You could even include a modest redemption fund to reimburse over time those existing members who paid an initiation deposit, and a sinking fund for those clubs stupid enough to actually borrow money.

Mike

« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 04:58:05 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JMEvensky

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #121 on: October 10, 2012, 05:08:28 PM »

PCraig: I belong to a club in Baltimore that initiated a summer membership program that gave full prvileges for young members and their families from May through Labor Day. There was no intiation fee and they paid reduced dues for the program. They were given member numbers and full charging privileges with no minimum. The club conducted several family nights and special events for families with young kids. The benefit of this structure is that it gave new young members and the club a test run. The club is able to evaluate if the prospective member is a good fit with the club and the prospect has time to meet other members and officers of the club before going through the formal membership process with letters, meetings etc. If the club is not a good fit for the prospect, for whatever reason--dues, lack of use, rule restrictions-- it becomes very clear during the trial run. The way to run this though is to only allow the summer membership for one season, and then have the prospect make decision about membership. The dues paid during the summer program are fully credited to the regular intiation fee and the prospect is given the option to spread the remaining intiation with no interest.


Sinclair,if you don't mind,would you describe this program a little more?

I'd be curious if there was a limit to the number of prospective members,if there was an age limit,if there were restrictions/limits to your use of the club/golf course?

If this club is member owned,I wish I could've been a fly on the wall at the Board meeting where this was proposed.This is the kind of offer that drives some members crazy.

Tim Martin

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #122 on: October 10, 2012, 06:22:48 PM »
I recently had occasion to play with a guy who was a member at a well known club that has been discussed on this board. He just got out after 48 years knowing that on his 50th anniversary his dues would be dropped to 50% going forward as written in the the by-laws and meant to be a thank you to anyone that had supported the club in that fashion. He told me that he was disgusted with the sorts of enticements that were being dangled to new members and thought that it diluted the value of membership. Additionally he was unhappy with the level of capital improvements being made that were not directly related to the golf course. He advised that he thought newer members should be required to have more skin in the game so as not to get in only to get out a short time later. He mentioned what the initiation was in 2005 compared to now which was certainly a drastic reduction. Not easy to please everyone.


« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:59:33 PM by Tim Martin »

Terry Lavin

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #123 on: October 10, 2012, 07:43:09 PM »
It's a matter of proper selection. You have to find the right younger members, the guys who won't go to every little league or lacrosse game, the guys who don't care if their wives don't get to meet everybody else's wives every weekend at the pool. The young guys who don't come up with wimpy excuses and then don't play in the member-guest. The young guys who love meeting and playing with as many other members as possible. In other words, guys who will never be told to "grow a pair".
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Attracting Younger Members
« Reply #124 on: October 10, 2012, 07:52:44 PM »
Terry.  To be blunt, that attitude would turn off most guys under 60, let alone 20, from wanting to join your golf club.   Do you put your waitresses in mini skirts and heels too?

PS. The reason I don't play in my own member guest is because I cannot afford it.  I hope you accept my excuse.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 07:55:22 PM by Dan Herrmann »

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