[Kevin_Reilly]

I am going to reveal my lack of knowledge on the workings of private clubs, but could someone please define what "downstroke" means?

"Downstroke" equals initiation fee...

Thank you! That is what I thought, but I just hadn't seen an actual definition.

Must be a regional expression...the city of broad shoulders and thereabouts.  It's not used in the Bay Area, for example.

[David Cronheim]

This topic has diverged a little bit. I think it's important to bear in mind that the strategies for recruiting junior members are totally differnt for:

1) Young families

2) Young professionals

The two groups have very little in common in what they're looking for except a concern for price. The best strategy is to get young people in before they get married and make it affordable for them to stay afterwards. Hell if someone joins at 25 and pays dues for 10 years, I think the club has done just fine by them without hitting them with a second big fee at 35.

Actually these populations probably have a lot of overlap.

David - it sounds like you are discussing something like "sweat equity". This sounds similar to having some percentage of the dues going towards the buy-in for full membership.

Jim, I'm not sure I see the overlap at all, except for cost. Could you give us an example of how you see that playing out? Someone who's younger and without kids doesn't want to pay for all the family activities. They want good golf and a good bar.

[Terry Lavin]

The private club culture is dying on the vine here in the US. The reasons are manifold, but here are the leaders in the clubhouse:

1. Less disposable income.
2. Fewer passionate players.
3. Family structural changes so dads not as independent.
4. Social lives don't revolve around clubs as much.

As a result, there are far fewer young potential members in the pool. Unless the club is a force in the community, a deemphasis on the family stuff like swimming, tennis and dining is the way to go because the emphasis on golf will keep costs down which will help justify a guy joining a golf club, as opposed to a country club.

This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.

[Patrick Kiser]

I have a question for those that are married with families looking into this...

Outside of work (assuming you're working), you spend most of your time already with the family, running around for activities, etc.

Wouldn't you want some "me time" or your own to decompress and get away from it all with a round at your club and not have to worry about bringing the family along?  Because you know if the family comes along ... there's no real down time.  I've observed this pretty much from friends and family in general.

Just asking and curious to hear how some feel about this.

[Brad Tufts]

I think a club's caddies are a good pool for junior members eventually as well.  We have a couple guys who are 25-30 now who are nowhere near affording the 30K over 3 years that Tedesco costs for a guy off the street.  So many of our current members were once Tedesco caddies, but the economics have changed a bit, and the caddie-young professional-member procedure doesn't really happen anymore.

Also, even being 31, I like caddies.  It's a great traditional "tournament" feeling each weekend (our club is cart or caddie mandatory on weekend mornings).  I would advise keeping caddie fees low...we suggest roughly $25-30 for a middle schooler, $40 for a high schooler, and $50+ for a bag room guy or shop asst.  Some clubs that say "our caddies get $80 or $100 plus tip" will guarantee the existence of adult caddies, who push the teenage caddies out of the club.   You have to protect a future golfer/member pool...if you can solve the problem in my first paragraph!

[Bruce Katona]

This is a wonderful discussion and there are several great ideas:
1. graduated dues for junior members with a portion applied to the membership initiation fee at age 35-40 (or whenever).
2. User friendly staff and intgrating newer members into the club through "mentors".
3. Minimal initial entry fees for younger members.  It can be "free" or the members will migrate from place to place chasing the best annual deal.

Customers join a golf club to play golf. The course and its conditions are paramount.  Good green/tee conditions, grass (you select the color) in the fairwys and a reasonable pace of play. Period.

Next in consideration is the make-up of the current membership - who exactly is a member?  A Fortune 500 CEO is unlikely to join a club many of the contributors to GCA would.  Many of us would not fee comfortable to a club where the Fortune 500 CEO is at home in his/her element - there are exceptions of course to this.  Members enjoy being with other like-minded members - human nature.

Amenties outside of golf are next.  Few will join or leave a club because of the food served, locker facilities or due to/lack of a workout room.  Pool and tennis may initially sell a family a membership as hubby sells wife on the "family use" aspect of the pool etc, but these facilities are pure money losers for the club net net. These members leave after a few years.

Just my $0.02.

[Matthew Sander]

Wouldn't you want some "me time" or your own to decompress and get away from it all with a round at your club and not have to worry about bringing the family along?  Because you know if the family comes along ... there's no real down time.  I've observed this pretty much from friends and family in general.

Patrick,

I get what you are saying, but the problem is the pie doesn't get any bigger. Having a young family (at least in our case) doesn't leave much room for "me time". Not to say it doesn't exist, but for me it usually comes in small bunches and I try to take advantage at those times...not exactly the kind of situation that lends itself to being an active and regular member of a quality golf club. I'm perfectly OK with that.

Also, I try to keep in mind that my kids are only little for a short time and golf will always be there. I love the game and when I get a chance to play or take a mini-trip I enjoy it as much as anybody. So for me, cost would be/is the most influential aspect of joining a club.

In fact, this year our spot came up on the waiting list of a little private golf club out here in the Chicago suburbs. It is actually a unique set up. The course isn't architecturally significant, it is bare bones and very simple as is the clubhouse. The maintenance is simple as well and the seasons tend to determine the playing conditions, but I've never seen the course in less than good shape. There is a traditional 18 hole course and a shorter 9 hole course that is popular with couples, seniors, and families. Many take carts, but the course is as easy a walk as you'll find and there are no cart paths. The yearly fee is incredibly low (only a few hundred dollars) and you pay a very modest green fee ($14-$25) per play. No one here would be wowed by the course or club, but it is a good fit for us at this time. The extremely low investment means we don't have to stress about using the club enough while we are busy with family activities and travel.

[PCCraig]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for all the very helpful and thoughtful responses. I am formulating a more thoughtful response of my own, but I'm running short on time as I am heading out for a long weekend out of the country.

However, I have a few follow up questions:

1) Terry & Clint, while I appreciate the caddie culture having been one myself and belonging to a club with a long history of supporting the Evans program, are mandatory caddies going to become a major hurdle to attracting and retaining younger members? Outside of a few privileged clubs, how are they going to sell caddie programs to younger guy who might be swayed into not joining a club because of an extra $3-400 in monthly costs during the golfing months? Especially when that amount it more than most junior member monthly dues? Just an honest question...and I would be curious to know what the WGA is doing to combat the potential decline in caddies and caddie programs.

I ask because my club doesn't have a "mandatory" caddie program currently, despite being a fairly healthy caddie club (for Minnesota, but not anywhere near clubs in Chicago like Beverly) in the summer with maybe 30-40 kids showing up for loops. Most of them get out. But there is a movement in the golf committee to make a caddie or cart mandatory before a certain time in order to boost the caddie program. My main worry is that a program like that would strongly discourage younger members to join. Maybe it's not as big of an issue as I think it could be, but doesn't a board of directors eventually have to ask themselves, what's more important?

2) How important are year-round activities in attracting younger members, or developing a stronger membership? Our club is certainly strong into the family/country club realm (well attended pool, tennis, etc..), but other than having (by far) the best sledding hill in the Twin Cities and cross country skiing and snowshoeing...there isn't a whole lot to do. I know paddle tennis is huge in Chicago, but we're on a pretty tight property. Have other people have experience with things that bring people to the club in the winter (in northern states?) Ice rinks? How about indoor golf simulators?

[JMEvensky]

Amenties outside of golf are next.  Few will join or leave a club because of the food served, locker facilities or due to/lack of a workout room.  Pool and tennis may initially sell a family a membership as hubby sells wife on the "family use" aspect of the pool etc, but these facilities are pure money losers for the club net net. These members leave after a few years.

Absolute truth--and anyone who's ever served on a club's Board knows it. But few have the balls to try and do something about it.

[Jeff Shelman]

The thing that I think that has been overlooked in this conversation is that situations are different across the country, especially when it comes to competition.

While it is all well and good that clubs require a significant, but not a huge, initiation fee, that only works if there are other clubs requiring the same.

In the case of Pat's club and the Twin Cities market, there are a number of clubs that are letting people in with zero initiation fee and a bunch more that have initiation fees of less than $5,000. For a younger guy looking at a club, that's a big deal and can certainly play into the decision of where to join.

[Richard Choi]

David, you have to remember that #2 (Young Professionals) quickly become #1 (Young Families). If you join as a #1, by the time you are ready to join the full membership, you are probably in the #1 category. At that point, you are not going to be making the decision on your own, and if there is very little benefit for the rest of the family at the club, the chances are, you are going to lose that #2 guy...

[Dan Byrnes]

The thing that I think that has been overlooked in this conversation is that situations are different across the country, especially when it comes to competition.

While it is all well and good that clubs require a significant, but not a huge, initiation fee, that only works if there are other clubs requiring the same.

In the case of Pat's club and the Twin Cities market, there are a number of clubs that are letting people in with zero initiation fee and a bunch more that have initiation fees of less than $5,000. For a younger guy looking at a club, that's a big deal and can certainly play into the decision of where to join.

This is very true not just in this discussion but so many of our club base discussions. In my area there are plenty of good deals for juniors and it still isn't really working.  There isn't a club in the area I can't just join with no real formality.  Think only 1 still has initiation.  2 hours from me there are many courses I couldn't join even if with cost not being an issue.

Dan

[Dan Byrnes]

I have a question for those that are married with families looking into this...

Outside of work (assuming you're working), you spend most of your time already with the family, running around for activities, etc.

Wouldn't you want some "me time" or your own to decompress and get away from it all with a round at your club and not have to worry about bringing the family along?  Because you know if the family comes along ... there's no real down time.  I've observed this pretty much from friends and family in general.

Just asking and curious to hear how some feel about this.

I get this but with busy schedules and limited income it typically gets to be too expensive for that benefit.  However if the entire family is using the club and its not just viewed as dads fun it goes along way to making it work.

My kids are now 7,9,11,13 and my wife is happy to have them at the club pool from all day all summer, which frees me up to golf more so its makes the membership more abut all of us.  I thought about leaving and it was her who insisted we stay even though she doesn't golf at all.

Dan

[Dan Byrnes]

The private club culture is dying on the vine here in the US. The reasons are manifold, but here are the leaders in the clubhouse:

1. Less disposable income.
2. Fewer passionate players.
3. Family structural changes so dads not as independent.
4. Social lives don't revolve around clubs as much.

As a result, there are far fewer young potential members in the pool. Unless the club is a force in the community, a deemphasis on the family stuff like swimming, tennis and dining is the way to go because the emphasis on golf will keep costs down which will help justify a guy joining a golf club, as opposed to a country club.

This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.

That is another direction.  Pretty much what my club has become.  Has its pros and cons but is a more sustainable business model.  A decent no real frills golf club!

Dan

[Mark Johnson]

Pat,

Can I ask a dumb question?  Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?

Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon?  Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.

the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.

[PCCraig]

Pat,

Can I ask a dumb question?  Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?

Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon?  Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.

the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.

Mark,

I think it mostly boils down to only having 21 members under 35 out of 325 golfing members. I don't know the average age but I'm guessing its around 55. T&C is a great neighborhood club which is only 10min from either downtown. However they have had a hard time recruiting younger members to join. As you know, it's a pretty traditional place, and I think they were a little behind the game in tailoring the club to younger tastes as discussed above. But with the membership age creeping up, the club has found it's well of younger new members drying up. Does that help?

[C. Squier]

This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.

Next time I see you around riding with a forecaddy I'll remind you of the 3 poor souls you're stiffing.  We have to take the same forecaddie with 4 walking members....so save the lecture.

[David Cronheim]

David, you have to remember that #2 (Young Professionals) quickly become #1 (Young Families). If you join as a #1, by the time you are ready to join the full membership, you are probably in the #1 category. At that point, you are not going to be making the decision on your own, and if there is very little benefit for the rest of the family at the club, the chances are, you are going to lose that #2 guy...

Richard, I absolutely agree with you, but we're talking about recruitment - the act of getting someone through the door and into the club at the outset. You're either #2 or #1 when you enter. You may change later, but only the exceptionally long-minded young professional joins somewhere thinking about how much his kids will enjoy the pool when he's not even married.

[Tom Dunne]

David, you have to remember that #2 (Young Professionals) quickly become #1 (Young Families). If you join as a #1, by the time you are ready to join the full membership, you are probably in the #1 category. At that point, you are not going to be making the decision on your own, and if there is very little benefit for the rest of the family at the club, the chances are, you are going to lose that #2 guy...

Richard, I absolutely agree with you, but we're talking about recruitment - the act of getting someone through the door and into the club at the outset. You're either #2 or #1 when you enter. You may change later, but only the exceptionally long-minded young professional joins somewhere thinking about how much his kids will enjoy the pool when he's not even married.

Agree with David here. Guy #2 is not going to join a family club before he needs to. I've been both Guy #1 and Guy #2--they want totally different experiences. I've been a member of a GCA favorite for half a dozen years now. Our kids were born in '10 and early '12. I used to happily travel ~120 minutes EACH way to play there. I'd do that 25-30 times a year! Now, despite living an hour closer to the club than I used to, I'm lucky if I get there five times a year, and the drive has become annoying. I'm looking at clubs with courses that are probably 2's and 3's on the Doak Scale that have the simple virtues of being less than 15 minutes from my front door and have a pool for the kids.

Patrick Kiser, the way I see it, the "Me Time" you're referring to is much more easily accomplished through golf travel abroad or by visiting the Ballyneals of the world. Hall passes can be obtained for that. It's much more challenging to sell all but the most sainted of wives on a golf-only type of membership when it's also in your own backyard. The resourceful ones, of course, just join one of each--a Winged Foot/Pelham CC arrangement, say.




   

[Carl Johnson]

Encourage and help your existing younger members to recruit their friends and acquaintenances.  Getting the word out, friend to friend, is a great way to recruit.  Of course, it begins by making sure that your current younger members feel really welcome and appreciated, and that you are satisfying their needs.  In a sense this is obvious (and may have already been pointed out above) but I think it is worth saying out loud.

[Mark Chaplin]

Terry - for me a caddie is a nice treat not a part of my essential golfing expenses. If supermarket A let's you buy your groceries, push the trolley with the goods to the car, put them in the trunk and drive off whereas souermarket B requires you to take a kid to push the trolley around the supermarket, out to the car and load the trunk for a compulsory $15 which one does the most business?

Requiring unnecessary and expensive labour crushed the US and European automotive and clothing industries, manufacturers went to cheaper markets. Isn't golf doing the same requiring caddies and requiring F&B spend?

[Dan Herrmann]

Mark.  VERY well said.   I think you have summarized the reason clubs need more young members. Excessive stuff (I wanted  to use a stronger word than stuff)

[Mark Johnson]

Pat,

Can I ask a dumb question?  Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?

Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon?  Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.

the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.

Mark,

I think it mostly boils down to only having 21 members under 35 out of 325 golfing members. I don't know the average age but I'm guessing its around 55. T&C is a great neighborhood club which is only 10min from either downtown. However they have had a hard time recruiting younger members to join. As you know, it's a pretty traditional place, and I think they were a little behind the game in tailoring the club to younger tastes as discussed above. But with the membership age creeping up, the club has found it's well of younger new members drying up. Does that help?

definitely makes sense.   i didnt realize just how old the membership was.

I wonder how much of the issue comes down to location.    From what I have seen, younger professionals and families are more likely to be settling on the minneapolis side, rather the st. paul side.    I know if it was 10-15 minutes closer for me, I would definitely consider joining.

[Terry Lavin]

This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.

Next time I see you around riding with a forecaddy I'll remind you of the 3 poor souls you're stiffing.  We have to take the same forecaddie with 4 walking members....so save the lecture.

Well said!  But one can't shout the values of walking and a great caddie program and then pay a $20 trail fee while a kid waits for a bag. Sorry for the lecture, which I should have avoided, but you're at an Evans Scholars club. You should not be carrying your bag when caddies are available. It's unseemly.

[corey miller]

I have heard great things about the Evans Scholarship program.  Kudos.  I live in the NYC Metro area and the Caddie situation may be a little different.  No problem with a young guy saving money for school while also having the opportunity to perhaps earn a scholarship.  What pay do they deserve? 

I do think it is a little different with the full-time caddie crew who carry double, may earn $100 a bag, try to get you around like you are in a line at Disney-world and are basically on cruise control.  This isn't all the guys but certainly enough to be a concern.  With all that, I still have no gripes other than perhaps the "service" from time to time.

However, I do think it has gone too far when it is essentially a job bank where guys show up...and you are required to take a guy in November or December etc etc. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()