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Carl Rogers

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O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« on: October 03, 2012, 08:10:31 PM »
hindsight for sure ...   Saturday night, your team has played as well as they possibly could, the other side a bit indifferently, you are well again wildly outstripping expectations.  3 scenarios...
1. assume that both teams will continue to play as they have been playing, the line up does not matter ... Americans win going away
2. Euros play better, Americans play ok but Euros are too far behind, some anxious moments, line matters a little bit Americans win or barely win
3. Euros play much better, you team falls apart and lose (what of course did happen)

Love did not evidently consider scenario 3.  Out of the 3 scenarios, scenario 3 is the only path for defeat.  If I knew something about game theory, I could probably describe the fail-safe decision(s) option. 

Assume Ollie sends out his best to catch up quick, while Love waits to the middle or back of the lineup to send out his best.  The only objective is to get to 14 1/2 points.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 08:14:08 PM »
 ::) ??? ::)

I'm no coach but I send all the studs early , break it open .  If they lose , then I'm the dummy.   However , it comes down to. A bunch of putts tha dropped on Sunday for Europe.   Give them their due, they played great .

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 08:16:16 PM »
Convince me that Love did not send his best players out first.  Take Tiger out of the equation as supposedly he requested the last spot.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 08:19:12 PM »
The problem is Europe was only going to retain the trophy, if they were getting some serious momentum: they had to win some early matches to get everyone on the team excited and to put doubt into the minds of team USA. So Davis Love did the best he could to prevent the change of momentum by putting out his big guns first.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Carl Rogers

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 08:26:59 PM »
Convince me that Love did not send his best players out first.  Take Tiger out of the equation as supposedly he requested the last spot.
That is the point I am making, Love did not send his weaker players first.  That is what I refer to in scenario 3, "half-concede" the first 3 or 4 matches to the Euros best.  As well as Luke Donald played, nobody could have got a 1/2 point against him.  Put Tiger out in the 7th or 8th spot.  Get in his face and dare him to be a champion again. Put Bradley against someone he could beat with his 'C' game

Love was too much of a cheerleader and not a leader.

Yes, the Euros deserve high praise.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 08:30:38 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 08:40:17 PM »
If Scenario 3 can happen - which did in this case - I struggle to find an argument that giving your best team a break Saturday PM helps you on Sunday. Let's say Phil/Keegan go out instead of Stricker/Woods. I get the totals would have been 11-5 heading into Sunday. Those two points they lost after resting up don't smart as much anymore, do they?

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 08:55:12 PM »
So the argument is he should have basically conceded the first 3 or 4 matches, let the European team (and their crowd) get some momentum, and then have his big guns (many of them Ryder Cup rookies) take it home?

That seems like a recipe for disaster.  

If one of the first five matches goes the other way the entire event may have turned out differently.  If Phil's chip on 17 goes in, the day may have been over.  If Poulter's drive on 18 was 10 yards closer to that tree, maybe he doesn't get his second shot on the green.  If any of Stricker's lipouts on the back nine go in, Tiger actually may have had a chance to make a difference.  

I have no issue with what Davis did, other than letting Tiger pick his spot (and even that choice might be defensible).

If you're going to single out one guy who wasn't going to give up a point on Sunday, the better choice would be Lawrie.  If Donald had played Phil or Dufner, his match may have gone the other way.

Of course, this entire conversation is based on hindsight.  As it turns out, the draws matched up pretty well for the Europeans.  They played better than the Americans as a whole on Sunday and hit the big shots in the big moments.  What can't be denied is that they were riding a wave of emotion all day, and that wave would have been there regardless of whether the first matches decided were against Watson, Simpson, Bradley and Mickelson or the sacrificial lambs Love could have chosen to put out first.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Carl Rogers

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 09:04:41 PM »
So the argument is he should have basically conceded the first 3 or 4 matches, let the European team (and their crowd) get some momentum, and then have his big guns (many of them Ryder Cup rookies) take it home?

That seems like a recipe for disaster.  ....
I thought a long time about starting this thread.
I contend that by Sunday the issue of 'rookie' is over, you have had your baptismal...
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 09:30:21 PM »
Davis Love didn't three-putt a single green. Blame those truly responsible. The Yanks that yanked yipped and choked when everything was on the line.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 09:49:10 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mark Bourgeois

Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 09:37:26 PM »
I wasn't aware Tiger requested the last spot but when I saw him there I thought that was the right spot.  The way I saw it, he wasn't playing well so bury him back there. If it turned out his match counted, it meant things had gone pear-shaped for the Yanks and you'd want someone back there who not only had the best chance of getting a hot putter under extreme pressure but the one team member above accusations of choking or at least beyond them (as in not caring).

Brilliant.

Oh, and I'm with Archie: send out your horses first and put the boot right on your opponent's Adam's Apple.

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 10:15:36 PM »
So the argument is he should have basically conceded the first 3 or 4 matches, let the European team (and their crowd) get some momentum, and then have his big guns (many of them Ryder Cup rookies) take it home?

That seems like a recipe for disaster.  ....
I thought a long time about starting this thread.
I contend that by Sunday the issue of 'rookie' is over, you have had your baptismal...

I like the analogy.  Pairs is like having your favorite uncle standing by your side at the baptismal urn.  Then they toss you out into the real world and see what you can do by yourself.

When it comes down to it, some guys are going to be able to thrive under the pressure (and there is more pressure on Ryder Cup Sunday than at any point on Friday or Saturday) and some guys aren't.  Sometimes that pressure will go away if you're matched up against a guy who is in the process of giving you the point (see MacDowell and Colsaerts).  Sometime you run into a buzzsaw and even if you play your ass off you're still just not good enough.  As it turns out for the U.S., this happened to Watson, Bradley and Mickelson.  Note that the first five guys on the European squad were a combined 23 under par. 

And most important of all, you have to close.  Here are the stats for the U.S. and Europeans over the last 2 holes:

U.S.: +6, no birdies
Europeans:  -1, 3 birdies

The Europeans had only two bogies on the last two holes, and one of those was by a guy who had to essentially birdie the hole to halve his match.  They kept matches alive long enough to give themselves a chance and got it done when it mattered, and the U.S. squad didn't.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ivan Morris

Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 04:36:15 AM »
When you boil it down Davis Love screwed up in so far as he wasn't demanding enough of his players on Sunday. Unlike Olazabal, he wasn't seen kicking ass and he failed to interact with the players during play, especially in the key matches toward the end. As I have said, over and over, the captain is a VIP and his team reflects his personality. Davis was too nice, too classy and putting Bubba at No. 1 and Tiger at No. 12 were his biggest mistakes. Whatever the players requested it was the captain's decision.

Jeff Evagues

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 08:48:43 AM »
This captain stuff is always ridiculous. Anyone on this board could have captain. Hogan could have been captain with Snead, Nelson, Hagen and Jones as assistants ( and why do they need so many now?) and Poulter would still make every putt. Furyk and Stricker are two of my favorite players but in high level sports younger guys will beat older guys more often than not.
Be the ball

Phil McDade

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 09:54:23 AM »
Carl:

I think part of the problem in assessing how Love (and Ollie, for that matter) did in making up his Sunday line-up is trying to accurately gauge who the "best" and "weakest" players are in that format.

To me, at first glance, Ollie front-loaded his line-up, and left the back of his line-up pretty vulnerable. But even he had to be uncertain about just how front-loaded it was; only Poulter (3-0) had a winning record for the week heading into singles, and Donald (although 2-1 lifetime in RC singles) had been smacked around pretty good for the first two days, particularly by the Bradley/Mickelson duo. Even Rory going out 3rd wasn't a sure bet; he drew his only previous RC singles match in 2010, and looked somewhat off a good share of the week. That he played well wasn't necessarily surprising; he's the world's No. 1 right now for a reason. But it wasn't a sure bet. To me Ollie's oddest selection was Lawrie at 5th -- he's the kind of veteran, fairways/greens grinder you'd think you'd want to put out last, just to have something for the very end if the entire Cup came down to that match (and remember Lawrie went last in 1999 and cleaned up on Maggert 4-and-3 when Euro needed every point to stop the U.S. route going on).

To me, Love almost surely knew Ollie would front-load the line-up, and wanted to counter it with some (not all) of his best players that week -- surely there was no one better to lead off than Watson to get the crowds revved up, and Watson had played pretty well up until the, going 2-1. And he sent out his two clearly hottest golfers -- Bradley and Mickelson -- 3rd and 4th. But he still had very good players in the back half of his line-up -- Z. Johnson and Dufner, who would've been 3-0 going into singles save for Poulter's crazy-good Sat. afternoon back nine (both of whom won in singles), along with Kuchar (2-0 and playing really well). Also in the back half of the line-up were Furyk, Stricker and Woods, combined 9-4-2 in RC singles matches. For Love, the big gamble was assuming his off-form veterans (Furyk, Stricker and Woods) would revert to their RC history in singles. Instead, they played the way they did most of Fri. and Sat. -- not that well, esp. down the stretch.

And as others in another thread have pointed out, some of this is luck, good and bad. Mickelson would've beaten 8 of Euro's golfers Sun. (and drawn with Donald); he got Rose and his -6 round. Bubba and Simpson really didn't play that poorly Sun.; they were just out-gunned. On the other hand, Z. Johnson didn't play all that well, but got away with a win against a struggling MacDowell.

For Ollie, Sergio and Westwood -- 3-9 career RCup singles records! -- came through with just enough against two guys (Furyk and Kuchar) stumbling down the stretch. Lawrie -- having lost two matches not closely during the week -- showed his '99 form in beating Snedeker. Kaymer, by everyone's account off-form as much as any Euro, got lucky with a draw against the equally off-form Stricker. Tiger couldn't shake the least-distinguished member of the Euro squad.

In the end, Ollie did the right thing in front-loading his line-up, which performed, and then got some good fortune and unexpected performances (Westwood, Molinari) down the stretch. Love's line-up to me was fine; his guys just failed -- time and again --to close out matches down the stretch.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:55:57 AM by Phil McDade »

Mike Hendren

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 11:10:57 AM »
hindsight for sure ...   Saturday night, your team has played as well as they possibly could, the other side a bit indifferently, you are well again wildly outstripping expectations.  3 scenarios...
3. Euros play much better, you team falls apart and lose (what of course did happen)

Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner.

So the better play by the Euros and the falling apart by the Americans would have changed with a different batting order?

Question:  What ALWAYS happens when one team plays much better and the other team falls apart?

Didn't everyone realize there are five sessions?

I'm no Love apologist but I continue to be amazed that it's all his fault.  I guess folks need to asuage their bitterness by naming a scapegoat and Love's the obvious choice.

It's really simple:

1.  Colsearts makes 150 feet of putts Friday - unbelievable.
2.  Poulter birdies the last five holes Saturday - unbelievable.
3.  Rose drops a Leonard-like bomb on Phil Sunday and follows that up with a clutch putt at 18 - unbelievable.
4.  Stricker fails to get up and down from the fringe on 17 - unbelievable.
5.  Furyk three-jacks the 18th - unbelievable.

Had only one of these unbelievable performances not happened - ONE, the European press would be villifying Ollie as we speak.  

I thought you guys were golfers.  Every tournament I ever won involved an unbelievable putt at the right moment.  Every tournament I ever lost involved a combination of my poor play and my opponents stellar play - it's just that simple.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of the Nashvegas locals blaming Sneds' poor Sunday performance on Love as well.  Never mind that a guy who won $11.5 million a week ago looked like a deer in the headlights Sunday when it mattered.  Hardly surprising when one considers his Sunday collapses when in contention in major championships.  

One last take on the simplicity of the matter, this from The Big Labowsky: "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear, well, eats you."

Europe opened up a can.  We need to take our arse-whipping like grown men.   Hooray for Europe.


Bogey

Quote
What's wrong with being number two?
- Tuesdays With Morrie

« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 11:32:08 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Howard Riefs

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 01:39:44 PM »
Davis writes on Golf.com...

If you need to blame somebody for this loss, blame me. I'm the one who signed off on the Sunday lineup, for the 12 singles matches. Europe won eight of those matches and tied a ninth. The final score was 14 1/2–13 1/2, Europe.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/davis-love-ryder-cup

 
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

JESII

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 03:40:00 PM »
The vast majority of credit goes to Team Europe for coming up with the goods when it mattered most...but golf is a game of momentum and Love opened the door to a change in momentum Saturday afternoon and the players succombed to it Sunday. One of the first five has to get on the board...

Tom ORourke

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2012, 09:20:48 PM »
What if Davis had totally back loaded his lineup? Started with some combo of Stricker, Snedeker, Furyk, Kuchar and finished with Zack, Watson, Bradley, Simpson, Phil, Tiger? That might have worked as Ollie went big up front. Even he admitted that. It would take real guts to do that but we would have had most of our hot players against their "weaker" players. I will say that if Davis had done that, and lost, most people would have thought he was crazy to let Europe get the momentum. But the Euros said they were happy with the draw as their best beat our best, and that was what they needed. That being said, the team that wins could usually pick the lineup out of a hat as the team that plays better wins. The captains do not hit shots.

Niall C

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 11:24:46 AM »
A couple of observations. I've no idea what actual influence both Captains had during the last days play but was pleased to see that they didn't appear to be in the faces of their teams and for the most part let them got on with it.

Secondly, re all the comments regarding putting, over the piece the putting wasn't bad on either side, and at times was ridicously good. For those lamenting the US's putting on the last day compared to the Euro team, cast your mind back to the first couple of days when the US team were sinking putts from all over the green and some of the Euros putts did everything but go in the hole.

I can understand the comparison to '99 but really, this was far from a collapse from the US team.

Niall

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 12:00:10 PM »
Out of curiousity, and understanding that matches can play out completely differently based on who is involved, here's a breakdown of how the backloaded U.S. lineup would have done using the scores posted on Sunday:

Sticker v. Donald - Luke wins 3&1  [10-7]
Snedeker v. Poulter - Close match, probably goes to 18, giving this to Poulter [10-8]
Furyk v. McIlroy - McIlroy wins 3&1 [10-9]
Kuchar v. Rose - Rose wins 3&2 [10-10]
Dustin v. Lawrie - Lawrie 1 up going into the last 3 holes, giving this to Lawrie [10-11]
Dufner v. Colsaerts - Dufner wins 4&3 [11-11]
Zach v. McDowell - Same result [12-11]
Watson v. Garcia - Watson 1 up going to 18, giving this to Bubba [13-11]
Bradley v. Hanson - Bradley wins 1 up [14-11]
Simpson v. Westwood - All square going into the last 2 holes [14 1/2 - 11 1/2 - U.S. clinches the cup]
Phil v. Kaymer - Phil wins 2&1 [15 1/2 - 11 1/2]
Tiger v. Molinari - Match doesn't matter, Tiger concedes to Molinari on 18 green for the half [16-12]

Interesting outcome, and does support the backloading theory.  This assumes that the Watson, Bradley, Simpson and Phil wouldn't have let the pressure of watching the Europeans take the first 5 matches affect their game. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ivan Morris

Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 01:10:22 PM »
@Michael Hendren - Is that 150 feet of putts holed by Colsaerts on day 1 a guesstimate? It looked like more!

Phil McDade

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 01:19:59 PM »
Sven:

Well, that's a somewhat selective backloading of the US line-up. Among other choices, you have Kuchar going out before Snedeker, when Kuchar had; a) played RC singles before, and b) Kuchar played much better than Snedeker the first two days. Remember that if you truly wanted to backload a line-up with your best players, you have to send out Tiger and Stricker first -- by far the two worst off-form players the first two days.

If you completely flip the U.S. order (which, wouldn't happen given that Tiger told Love he wanted to be last -- yet one more reason Tiger shouldn't be chosen for a RCup team if a captain has a say in the matter), I've got Euro winning 7 matches and US 4, with the entire thing hanging on the Simpson-Kaymer match (which, I haven't gone through the play-by-play to see who would win it). Under this line-up, Dufner (to Rose), Snedeker (to Garcia) and Bradley (to Westwood) all lose matches that they would've won under your scenario.

Jud_T

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2012, 01:40:03 PM »
Once again Tiger wasn't the Captain....Unfortunately for the team and all the U.S. fans neither, apparently, was Love....The problem with these things is no golfer/Captain wants to offend his buddies.  How about bringing this guy in next time to kick ass and take names:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCf46yHIzSo
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 01:41:35 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2012, 01:43:14 PM »
Phil:

I went with the lineup Tom suggested earlier in the thread.  If anything, it really shows you how much of a crapshoot it is.  Love may have been better off putting all of the names in a hat.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil McDade

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Re: O/T:Davis Love's Single's decisions or non-decisions
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2012, 03:12:01 PM »
Once again Tiger wasn't the Captain....Unfortunately for the team and all the U.S. fans neither, apparently, was Love....The problem with these things is no golfer/Captain wants to offend his buddies.  How about bringing this guy in next time to kick ass and take names:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCf46yHIzSo


Glengarry Glen Ross.

Let's see:

Alec Baldwin
Al Pacino
Jack Lemmon
Ed Harris
Jonathon Pryce
Kevin Spacey

That's quite a lineup. Presonally, I think if the director would have "backloaded" the talent in this movie, and switched some of the lines, as well as have a car crash or two, a romantic interlude with a Danish hooker and picked Vin Diesel for the role of "Blake" , the director would have had a much bigger box office draw that what this movie ultimately pulled.

The Director and Casting Agent blew it.

The movie cost more to make than it brought in at the gate, and Lemmon was snubbed for an Oscar nomination.