Is PV no longer the toughest test?

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike McCoy, a member, shoots 129 for the 36 qualifier in the Crump Cup. I'm guessing the back tees were used along with competitive pin positions. Was the course exceptionally soft or for those at the top level is Pine Valley playing easier?

[William_G]

good question

[Joel_Stewart]

That score is remarkable but I've never thought PV to be "the toughest test".   Pine Valley requires the most precise shots I have seen for 18 holes and obviously this guy putted lights out for 2 days.

I'll assume Mike McCoy is also a long straight driver of the ball?   If so, he's able to hit a lot of short irons into the greens at PV.  If you place him on a course which is US Open tough, there is no way he shoots those scores.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have known Mike since college, he can flat out play.
Has been one of the premier mid amateur players for a long time, and as a member I assume is very familiar with his 'home" course.
That been said even he I would imagine was a little surprised with two concecutive rounds in those halcion heights that produce those scores.Probably more a reflection of a player been in that elusive zone rather than a reflection on the course he was playing.
Pine Valley simply requires very precise shot making.
It is a complete and tough tset of golf, but if you are'on" it is playable.
I think many who have played there agree that a regular tour event if held there would require a score of around 12/16 under to win, so in that respect it may not be the toughest test of golf, but it is still up there with the very very best.
The wonder of the course is that it is tough withour being tricked up, could you "trick"it up and make it almsot unplayable...of course, but it has never claimed to do that.
Narrow the fairways to 23 yards and firm , grow severe US Open rough, have the greens firm and at 13/14 on the stimp..now anything under par starts to look like a winner.
Interested to see what Jamie and Mr Mucci say on this ....they know the course better than myself.

[David_Tepper]

There is an ongoing discussion of what Mike McCoy's 2 fantastic rounds implies for PV at the back end of this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53434.0.html

It should be mentioned that McCoy's 129 was 13 shots better than the next best score, so it was not like the field had their way with the course. That being said, if an amateur in his 40's can shoot 129, I have no doubt that the best professionals in the prime of their careers can do at least as well.

[Dan Boerger]

Joel Stewart: Well put! And fully agree.

[Mark Chaplin]

David - hadn't seen the ongoing discussion as it is "off topic", it's a question worth it's own debate as PV has such a profile within the game.

Michael - PV is certainly the toughest natural set up I've played, the fairways are wide but you can be comfortably on the short grass yet seriously out of position. Likewise miss a green in the wrong place and you can be in serious trouble yet paces from the pin. A mate shot 74 last year, on the 2nd the pin was centre of the green but only 4 or 5 paces from the back edge. He hit a great 9 iron that skipped over the back and was only a yard off the green, he alkyd off with a 6. Win USGA ribbons of fairway and 4" deep rough the course would be nye on impossible.   

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am not sure PV was really ever "the" toughest test in golf.  It is difficult but if you keep your head you can make a score on it. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

MWP,

It's difficult for any course created in 1918 to stand up to the better to best players in 2012.

For the most part the course has remained static while the I & B and golfers have improved dramatically.

While some holes have been lengthened, many haven't

Holes # 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11. 13 and 17 have remained relatively static

Holes # 1, 3, 12 and 15 have gained modest length.

Only holes 4, 7, 14, 16 and 18 have added considerable length in an attempt to offset the impact of high tech.

A great course should yield great scores to a great round.

If a golfer drives it long and straight and hits a high number of greens and putts well, how can any course prevent low scores, even on successive days ?

[archie_struthers]

 

It's often called the best, which is subject to discussion, but it isn't the hardest for many reasons.   It's quite fair, little or no rough , not a lot o water , no OB , none.   Big fairway and greens ,

 It's awesome , great holes varied and fiun , not crazy long ,  no rough. Oops , already said that. 

Check m Wharton Palmers thread , it's right on .

[Scott Warren]

It's not the toughest golf course for the reasons others have suggested, but to me it is the most intense golf course I know, simply because you know that any error will be punished, often enormously. So to me it may well be the toughest mental test.

I feel an intense pressure over every shot at PV, because you should execute everything, but know a dud shot will really hurt you, and in your flustered state you're likely to then do three or four other dumb things!

So I can understand McCoy shooting 129 for 36 holes at the Crump, definitely. But I also understand why nobody else did and the next best guy was 13 shots back!

[Tom_Doak]

I think previous posters are underselling the golf course.  Pine Valley may not be THE TOUGHEST test of golf in the world today, but it has been in the discussion for ALMOST 100 YEARS now.  There is no other golf course that will ever touch that.

Funnily enough, I played on Monday in Chicago with Bill Shean who held the previous 36-hole record qualifying score at PV [but not for the Crump Cup, I think].  He was shocked that his score had lasted as long as it had ... and pretty amazed to see it shattered as it was.

[Mark Chaplin]

We were lucky enough to sit with Mike McCoy and Bill Shean on the same table at dinner last year.

Doesn't Pine Valley have one of the highest slope ratings in the US? Golf Digest has the course as number 2 behind The Ocean Course.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2012-01/americas-75-toughest-courses?currentPage=2

[Pete Blaisdell]

Pat
 Thank you for providing one of the most astute quotes ever posted on this site.

          " A GREAT COURSE SHOULD YIELD GREAT SCORES TO A GREAT ROUND "

 A simple statement but one that should always be true. Too many courses built in the last 30 years have based their drawing power on being difficult to score on instead of seeking to be enjoyable for all abilities.

 Congrats to Mike on a great two days of play. There are very few courses that can provide 18 holes of continuous challenge but are still fair and reward great play. PV is one of those courses.

 The only change I might make to Pat's contribution is substituting WILL for SHOULD.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

Thanks.

Forgotten in most of the hi-tech and distance discussions is the impact of a ball that stays in the round and it's interaction with greens mowed to provide extremely true putting surfaces.

Those improvements also produce lower scores.

I would venture to say that Pine Valley at this time of year is in ideal condition, which encourages better scores.

[Mark Chaplin]

Pete - I think Lee Westwood would disagree with you over "will and should", hitting fairways and knocking irons close doesn't always end up with super low scores!!

[Paul Jones]

I think Oakmont and Kiawah Island Ocean are both a lot harder then Pine Valley.  What I loved about PV are the wide fairways and greens.  However, if you miss either, double bogey is never out of the question.