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Niall C

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Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« on: October 20, 2012, 08:53:57 AM »
Looking through a bunch of material I had in an old box and recently came across this comment;

"most visiting golfers leave Scotland curious about the absence of a pervasive sea aspect in their links experience"

Is that how it was for most first time visitors on this DG ? If not, what were your thoughts ?

Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 12:06:44 PM »
Niall -

I can think of a number of links courses, although not necessarily in Scotland, where one hardly ever gets a view of the sea.

Lytham St. Anne's is the most obvious one, but I don't recall getting any water views at either Birkdale or nearby Hillside. Except for the views from a couple of elevated tees, you hardly get any sea views at Royal County Down.

DT

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 01:29:28 PM »
Scotland

Prestwick
The New
Junilee
Eden
Mussleburgh Old

but they sem the exceptions to me.

Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark Pearce

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 01:49:50 PM »
No "pervasive" sea aspect at TOC or Muirfield.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Gary Slatter

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 02:01:37 PM »
I don't understand "sea aspect" well enough.   The new Castle Course plays close and over the sea, but gets little love.  I've always liked sea views, Torrance and Devlin, Lundin, Crail, Dornoch,etc have superb views, but I certainly never miss them (Muirfield, Carnoustie, Prestwick) if the course is good.  Kingsbarns uses the sea well, from the locker room, clubhouse, on the 12th and 15th and throughout the layout. 
Renaissance Club must want a sea aspect as their new holes will embrace it while abandoning some worthy holes.

Was the statement a result of a past survey taken, or was it a Trump creation to gain approval ? :)
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2012, 02:32:15 PM »
It was Rihc who pointed out to me that you can't actually see the sea from Old Course, only the Eden Estuary.

My introduction to golf in Scotland began in South-West Scotland, namely Southerness, Stranraer and Portpatrick, back in the 60s (1960s, not 1860s!) and, happily, you get some good (to great) sea views from all three. But it wasn't only the sea views that I remember. This was a time in my teens when I was a very average golfer (still am) but my father was opening my eyes to what I now understand as course architecture. Southerness made a big impression on me and I having revisited the course (albeit with the holes in a different order) and I can understand why it did. It is clever, subtle and brilliant on a site which offers no natural advantages other than a burn and lots of gorse. And it was built for next to nothing. I love it and its remote situation. I have been back to Portpatrick and was disappointed to find that they had added a few token bunkers to what had been a thoroughly good bunkerless course. It's not a great course, but there are some very good holes and the situation is marvellous. Of Stranraer (which I have only played the once, more than 40 years ago) I remember rather too little, apart from one hole where you drive off from a cliff top down to a fairway beside the beach. I think it was one of James Braid's last courses.

We also played Kirkudbright which was then a 9-hole course. Or, more properly, we played three or four holes, before my father bent down to retrieve his ball from the hole, did some damage to his back and that was it for golf in 1966 or was it 67?

I think my next Scottish adventure was The Old Course. My father-in-law had been Professor of French at St Andrews and my wife had been at school there. It was a very sporty school (St Leonard's) and she played cricket, hockey, lacrosse, tennis to a very high level. Strangely she didn't play golf. But her brother did. He was at boarding school not in St A's but he played on the various St Andrews courses every day in his holidays. He was a good player. In the late 70s and early 80s he and I had many a trip to St A's. Naturally we played the Old Course pretty well every day. Green fees were not prohibitive and at Easter you didn't even need to bother with the ballot. We also played the Eden (before the alterations) and New, although I've only played the Jubilee with my wife, once before it was altered, and we both hated it. Nicolas and I were round the Old Course in a little over two hours (out record was 1 hour 45 minutes!) so we also played Crail, Leven, Lundin, Ladybank, Golf House Club, Scotscraig and we even ventured over the Tay to Carnoustie, Monifieth, Panmure and Montrose. But one of the most destructive places we played was Dollar. It's only a modest little course, but it packs quite a punch. I must go back.

But this post is about perspective. My most recent Scottish experience was Trump Scotland. I was very impressed by it. But I think of the old courses in terms of perspective. None, apart from the Old Course, is actually that old. Most are works in progress. I have no objection to that - improvements in equipment, fitness and everything else are discussed endlessly - but possibly my most seminal experience of Scottish golf was some years ago at Leadhills. It's not an old course, but it certainly is primitive. I met the wonderful Alfie Ward and played the course with his hickories and gutties. It was a great experience and I think it is recorded in the 'In my opinion' section of GCA.

Looking back, I think the thing about Scottish golf was how natural it was, not how manufactured it has become.  

Niall C

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 08:12:44 AM »
Mark

Seriously, when are you going to write your autobiography ?

As to your last comment, I would hope that Scottish golf hasn't become too manufactured. Perhaps in time when modern courses become the standard bearers, you might look at that way but in the meantime I think there's plenty of good Scottish golf thats been little altered over the years played at clubs that work on a break even basis for their members rather than considering themselves a business. Long may that continue.

I suppose my OP question was aimed at overseas golfers. I can't imagine that golf course design would be that much different throughout the British Isles in which case I imagine you would have been well conditioned to it before coming over the border.

BTW, totally agree about both your comments on Southerness and Portpatrick. The bunkers at Portpatrick are pointless and detract from the course.

DT/Mark/Tony

I would imagine there is quite a list of seaside courses that have limited or no seaviews. I played another one on Friday at Fraserburgh which I think I'm right in saying has no sea views at all, or at least none that I noticed. I wonder why that is, is it because living on an island we're used to sea views and really its nothing so special ?

Gary

Its interesting that you highlight Kingsbarns as the quote is taken from a document written by Mark Parsinen in relation to Kingsbarns. Its very interesting and more or less is his design philosophy. Interesting you mention Trump also as the story goes that Parsinen passed on the Balmedie site before Trump saw it on the basis of the lack of sea views. Clearly his philosophy doesn't extend to putting is tees on top of the highest dune he can find  ;D

Niall 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 08:37:57 AM »
You have to remember when thinking about "sea views" that most Scottish links were not "designed" in the modern era but simply evolved from early routings that followed the existing turf [which was mostly in the valleys].  There was nobody involved back then who thought much about the idea of providing nice views to the retail customers ... there weren't any retail customers. 

This has changed dramatically in the last 30 years.  Now even the Scottish clubs' finances are predicated on a certain number of overseas visitors paying hefty green fees, and the overseas visitors are presumed to want sea views and photogenic holes.

P.S.  Muirfield does have some great views of the Firth of Forth from many of its holes.  It amazes me that many people overlook them, as I believe it is part of the course's appeal to visitors, whether they cite it or not.

Niall C

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2012, 08:50:32 AM »
Tom

I think we agree, the courses weren't designed for aesthetics but with the practicalities in mind and that was the ease of providing the best turf which as you say was often not immediately adjacent to the sea. However even where there are sea views, as in Muirfield, you're not presented with it the way you are at Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart in particular. However the question is, do first time visitors to these shores go away disappointed and maybe surprised at the lack of seaviews ?

Niall

Tom_Doak

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2012, 10:51:55 AM »
Tom

I think we agree, the courses weren't designed for aesthetics but with the practicalities in mind and that was the ease of providing the best turf which as you say was often not immediately adjacent to the sea. However even where there are sea views, as in Muirfield, you're not presented with it the way you are at Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart in particular. However the question is, do first time visitors to these shores go away disappointed and maybe surprised at the lack of seaviews ?

Niall

Some do, although many have done enough homework to know not to expect them.

Turnberry is very popular with Americans because it has the sea views that Troon and Prestwick don't.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 11:28:23 AM »
Tom,

Yes, Muirfield has sea views on some holes.  Hardly "pervasive", though, are they?  I'm pretty sure you can see the sea from the 1st and 18th at TOC, too.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 12:26:51 PM »
Tom,

Yes, Muirfield has sea views on some holes.  Hardly "pervasive", though, are they?  I'm pretty sure you can see the sea from the 1st and 18th at TOC, too.

Mark:

Not sure what qualifies as "pervasive" but I recall good views of the sea from the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 11th, 12th and 15th at Muirfield.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 03:13:29 PM »
Tom,

I'm not sure either.  However, whilst you do get excellent sea views (up the Firth towards Edinburgh and across to Fife), to me they always feel "outside" the golf course.  That is, they don't feel like part of the playing experience in the way the sea views do at North Berwick, Elie and Crail, for instance.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 05:03:43 PM »
I know I'm an absolute sucker for even a sniff of the sea. So I'm logging it as a compliment as to the quality of the course, that apparently I never raised my head even once in my two rounds at Muirfield.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Perspective on Course Design in Scotland
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 07:56:13 AM »
"most visiting golfers leave Scotland curious about the absence of a pervasive sea aspect in their links experience"

It has been noted that you can see the sea from Muirfield at some points and the same is true for its neighbour trcaa.  I think you can see the sea on 9, 12, 13, 14? while playing renaissance’s current hole configuration.  And again you can only see the sea and not come close to hitting a ball in it.

They are however building three holes on a parcel of land right next to the firth of forth and replacing the first three holes.

Given the club has a decent amount of overseas (US) members is this evidence for people leaving Scotland feeling they could have coped with a little more connection with the sea? 

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