Does Medinah's architecture favor the US?

[Mark Johnson]

This isnt about whether Medinah is a good or great course.   But rather does the architecture support the Americans chance to take back the Ryder Cup.

Just recently got an email from a friend of mine who is a casual golfer and he asked me for my ryder cup pick and I said 15-13 Europe.   He responded by saying that was just the course just doesnt set up for Americans with the tightness of the holes and the fall winds of the midwest.   I believe this is why the US did so well at Valhalla.  Not sure there is a course out there set up better for this generation of Americans.



If it was truly about winning (as opposed to just selling tickets), here are 5 courses off the top of my head which would greatly improve the US chance to win based on their strengths.   (I  have ignored courses which arent looking to host an major tourneys (chicago, PV, Seminole, etc).   Please note these selections are based on supporting the American team strengths of power and modifying their weaknesses (accuracy), but about the greatness of the course.


- Pebble
- Torrey Pines
- Oak Tree
- Oakmont
- Country Club

[David_Tepper]

Mark J. -

I think it is getting harder and harder to say one type of course favors the U.S. vs. Europe or vice-versa. The fact is a healthy number of players on the European team have homes in the U.S. and play quite a bit of their golf on the U.S. tour. The other fact is that many of the courses on the European Tour are now very similar to the courses on the U.S. Tour. The game of golf at the professional level globally has become much more homogenized over the past 20-30 years.

DT   

[Phil McDade]

I tend to agree with David, and would add the squads -- in terms of their style of play -- look remarkably similar. Kuchar, Dufner, Z. Johnson, Simpson and even Stricker and Snedeker are not guys I'd characterize as really long off the tee. And Euro has some really big hitters, with Rory, McDowell and Kaymer among them.

To me, RCups always come down to whether a few key competitors do better than expected. I think Rory and McDowell, who may play 4 times together, will be a bear for any US side to handle. Tiger simply has to play better than his past RCups, but he likes Medinah and has played well here, so I'm guessing he will -- he'll almost certainly play 5 times. And I'd expect Love to play short-hitters like Z. Johnson and Kuchar quite a bit (more than 3 times probably) because of their experience, and Snedeker a lot because he's the hottest guy on the US side.

On the US side, I'd look at how Snedeker, Simpson and Bubba play -- if those three have good RCups this week, the US should be in really good shape. For Euro, Kaymer, Poulter (who was great at Valhalla in a losing effort) and -- especially -- Sergio are the key guys.

[JMEvensky]

Put me in the same camp--I don't think Medinah favors either team.

These are 24 of the best players in the world. There aren't many golf courses they'd have trouble with.

[Dan Kelly]

Doesn't it always come down to who makes the 10-footers?

[Mark Johnson]

I agree that the styles are closer, however, i still belief there are significant differences in strengths.

There is a reason that DL3 eliminated rough at Medinah, because the US is likely to be there more.   While the differences arent as pronounced, I think there is a reason the Euros tend to excel under US open setups, while Americans are much better under a PGA setup.

That said,   here are the latest driving accuracy ranks

US

Furyk 5
Stricker  57
Woods 53
Mickelson 166
Watson  129
Duffner 21
Bradley 81
Z Johnson 14
Johnson 154
Kuchar 40
Sned 108
Simpson 85

Keeping the ball in play isnt exactly a strength here.    Hard to do comparisons since most europeans dont have have PGA tour stats for a fair comparison

When you look at the Vahalla setup it was the most bomber friendly setup in recent history, you cant tell me that wasnt a key contributor to the US win

[Wade Whitehead]

I can tell you on Sunday night.

WW

[Phil McDade]

Mark:

Lots of bombers on that '08 US squad -- Holmes, Boo, Mahan, Kim, Perry, Mickelson, Cink.

Set-up is over-rated; doing well in the formats of the Ryder Cup is not. Combined record of 8 Euro players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 26-7-7. Combined record of 8 US players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 11-20-8.

U.S. better be ready.

[Mark Johnson]

Mark:

Lots of bombers on that '08 US squad -- Holmes, Boo, Mahan, Kim, Perry, Mickelson, Cink.

Set-up is over-rated; doing well in the formats of the Ryder Cup is not. Combined record of 8 Euro players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 26-7-7. Combined record of 8 US players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 11-20-8.

U.S. better be ready.

I agree Phil..   Seems like I am the only American who is picking the Euros.

[Phil McDade]

Mark:

Lots of bombers on that '08 US squad -- Holmes, Boo, Mahan, Kim, Perry, Mickelson, Cink.

Set-up is over-rated; doing well in the formats of the Ryder Cup is not. Combined record of 8 Euro players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 26-7-7. Combined record of 8 US players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 11-20-8.

U.S. better be ready.

I agree Phil..   Seems like I am the only American who is picking the Euros.

Mark:

I went out on a limb and predicted a tie, with Euro keeping the Cup.

I think the U.S. has a decent chance, and will play better than in some recent RCs. Reasons?

-- It's a better squad, with better depth, and some hot players. When you can get away sitting Kuchar -- a really solid player the past two years -- and Simpson, you've got a pretty good squad. I think on balance, the US squad is deeper, although I think the Euros are better at the top.

-- I normally give short shrift to Tiger, and he may still resort to his RCup malaise -- if it was any other course. But he's won here twice, MJ's in town, and I'm guessing it won't take much for the well-oiled Chicago fans to rev him up. I think he'll play pretty well.

-- Everyone on this board seems to disdain the role of captains, but I think they make a big difference, and all reports suggest Love is running a loose ship and keeping things pretty even-handed and low key, given the intense nature of this event. His remarks today about the nature of competition and keeping it in perspective were some of most thoughtful I've heard about sports for a long time.

Still, Euro loves this format, and obviously has done well of late. Should be fun.

[David_Tepper]

John Huggan column on the course set-up at Medinah. He likes it!

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2012/09/medinah-setup-a-refreshing-change-of-pace.html

[Mark Johnson]

Mark:

Lots of bombers on that '08 US squad -- Holmes, Boo, Mahan, Kim, Perry, Mickelson, Cink.

Set-up is over-rated; doing well in the formats of the Ryder Cup is not. Combined record of 8 Euro players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 26-7-7. Combined record of 8 US players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 11-20-8.

U.S. better be ready.

I agree Phil..   Seems like I am the only American who is picking the Euros.

Mark:

I went out on a limb and predicted a tie, with Euro keeping the Cup.

I think the U.S. has a decent chance, and will play better than in some recent RCs. Reasons?

-- It's a better squad, with better depth, and some hot players. When you can get away sitting Kuchar -- a really solid player the past two years -- and Simpson, you've got a pretty good squad. I think on balance, the US squad is deeper, although I think the Euros are better at the top.

-- I normally give short shrift to Tiger, and he may still resort to his RCup malaise -- if it was any other course. But he's won here twice, MJ's in town, and I'm guessing it won't take much for the well-oiled Chicago fans to rev him up. I think he'll play pretty well.

-- Everyone on this board seems to disdain the role of captains, but I think they make a big difference, and all reports suggest Love is running a loose ship and keeping things pretty even-handed and low key, given the intense nature of this event. His remarks today about the nature of competition and keeping it in perspective were some of most thoughtful I've heard about sports for a long time.

Still, Euro loves this format, and obviously has done well of late. Should be fun.

The reason I like the Euros is that they do a much better job keeping the ball in play, giving away fewer holes and giving themsleves to putts at birdie in 4-ball.

For the Americans to win, I think the key is Jason Duffner.   He has been by far the most consistant american over the back half of the season and seems to have a good head on his shoulders similar to DL3.

[Phil McDade]

The reason I like the Euros is that they do a much better job keeping the ball in play, giving away fewer holes and giving themsleves to putts at birdie in 4-ball.

For the Americans to win, I think the key is Jason Duffner.   He has been by far the most consistant american over the back half of the season and seems to have a good head on his shoulders similar to DL3.

There is a large, wooded and semi-swampy area between the 17th green and 14th tee that seems like nowheresville -- Tiger managed to hit it there off the tee on 14 on Wednesday.

I watched the Mickelson/Bradley/Zach Johnson/Dufner foursome led by Couples on Wednesday, and Dufner seemed to be off in his own world, not hanging as much with the other guys. I think he'll be interesting to watch -- he's not real long, so I wonder how he'll like the course. And I was a bit surprised he got the call today in the white-hot atmosphere of Thursday morning foursomes while Kuchar -- a pretty ideal foursomes guy -- sits. But you're right -- he's been pretty consistent all season long.

[Terry Lavin]

It favors fun, it seems to me. Let's hope they have fun playing. If they do, so will we as we watch.

[Jud_T]

You gotta like Europe's chances in the first 2 matches and US's in the last 2.  Donald and Garcia are undefeated in this format.  The U.S. needs Furyk and Mickelson to show up early.  I'm surprised by the Westwood/Molinari pairing.  While lights out from tee to green, which arguably will be critical on a course with relatively small greens, neither of these guys can make a putt when he needs to.  I understand pushing Michelson and Tiger down in the lineup, but Furyk to lead off?  He really needs to validate Love's picking him and he's got a tall order this morning.  Hopefully Snedeker will ride a hot putter.  Also Snedeker loves to play fast and Furyk won't help in that regard.  These are the two pairings that are a bit of a head scratcher.  I guess Love's got his gambling bombers in reserve for Fourball (wouldn't Mickelson fall into that category?), but starting off down 2-0 might be digging a big hole early.

[Phil McDade]

Jud:

I've always thought putting is a bit over-rated in foursomes -- where it's not unusual for pars to win holes. Westwood and Molinari are really solid tee-to-green, and may not have to make a bunch of putts to stay in the match. Westwood's 7-2-4 record in foursomes (hasn't lost a foursomes match since '99?) suggests this is a format he likes and does well in.

[Phil McDade]

Another short note: It was really windy both Wednesday and Thursday at Medinah, during the primary practice days. It looks dead calm this morning.

[PCCraig]

Mark:

Lots of bombers on that '08 US squad -- Holmes, Boo, Mahan, Kim, Perry, Mickelson, Cink.

Set-up is over-rated; doing well in the formats of the Ryder Cup is not. Combined record of 8 Euro players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 26-7-7. Combined record of 8 US players being sent out tomorrow morning in foursomes: 11-20-8.

U.S. better be ready.

I agree Phil..   Seems like I am the only American who is picking the Euros.

Mark,

I'm one of the few American's who's a Euro fan (long story), but I think the American's are going to barnstorm them this weekend.

[Mike Hendren]

Doesn't it always come down to who makes the 10-footers?

+1.  The Ryder Cup is a glorified putting contest.  

[Richard Choi]

If you want to give US a real advantage, there are two things you need to do.

First, find the hottest place in US in late Sept. Most Europeans grew up in cold weather climates, make them sweat - a lot.

Second, play on a course with Bermuda greens - more grain the better. Not that many events on European Tour are played on Bermuda.

[Phil McDade]

#15 set up today at 315! And downwind to boot. Furyk drove the green, McDowell dunked his in the lake.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know if any of the theories about which type of courses favor which group of players, are actually correct.  The only courses which I think have really favored one side in these matches were The Belfry and Valderrama, because the Europeans had played them so many times in tournaments and were so comfortable on them ... which isn't true for any of the courses our own PGA has chosen.

I can tell you in working with Curtis Tyrrell over the past year to plan out our renovations on course #1, he's spoken several times about how much he has been working with Davis Love to get the course set up a certain way for the event, and that Davis has taken a lot of responsibility for that part of it.  I presume all of his suggestions are intended to give his side its best chance of winning, so we'll see how well those choices play out this weekend.  But, no matter how they set the place up, I'd have to agree that each team's ability to make clutch putts is really what will decide who is the winning team.

P.S.  I had to chuckle at Terry Lavin's comment that the course setup favors fun.  "Fun" and Medinah #3 have never been synonymous, although I guess the set-up of the course has been as fun as it could be.

[Jud_T]

Might be a random coincidence (like the bounce Tiger got), but the US was 4/4 on #15 this morning.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

The greens looked lightning fast. They were cut and mowed around lunchtime. Does this mean DLIII thinks fast greens favor the Americans? I think it would make sense, since green speeds in the US are usually faster than those in Europe.

I've never even been to Europe, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I do watch a decent amount of the Euro tour.

[Mark Pearce]

The greens looked lightning fast. They were cut and mowed around lunchtime. Does this mean DLIII thinks fast greens favor the Americans? I think it would make sense, since green speeds in the US are usually faster than those in Europe.

I've never even been to Europe, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I do watch a decent amount of the Euro tour.

I would have agreed with that but then the only European who really putted well was Colsaerts, who plays the vast majority of hi golf in Europe.  I think we may be over thinking this, to be honest.  It all comes down to who holes putts and the US team was much better than Europe yesterday afternoon.