Texas, the Lonestar State

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Newport Dunes in Port Aransas (near Corpus Christi) is a great course!

You've got Dunes, sandy soil, ocean views, wind (lots of wind) and a course that can be played with a decent ground game.

Great is certainly a relative term.

Amended to FUN....

What did you not like about the course?

I enjoyed it for what it was, but it was a long way from great.  I liked the single cut of grass.  It was either in play or lost.  I think the paspalum grass leaves a little to be desired - it played really slow.  I'm also not sure that there was a lot of strategic interest to the course.  The wind may actually be too severe at this site as well - without question one of the windiest locations in the US.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Newport Dunes in Port Aransas (near Corpus Christi) is a great course!

You've got Dunes, sandy soil, ocean views, wind (lots of wind) and a course that can be played with a decent ground game.

Great is certainly a relative term.

When I played it, they had a sign saying the greens were rolling at 12 on the Stimpmeter...prehaps that was yards and not feet.

I liked the grass cut as well...the 3 or 4 holes on the other side of the road felt goofy. If the house ever go in that might actually help with the wind protection, but will ruin the course.

Amended to FUN....

What did you not like about the course?

I enjoyed it for what it was, but it was a long way from great.  I liked the single cut of grass.  It was either in play or lost.  I think the paspalum grass leaves a little to be desired - it played really slow.  I'm also not sure that there was a lot of strategic interest to the course.  The wind may actually be too severe at this site as well - without question one of the windiest locations in the US.

[mike_beene]

As long as golf is considered a summer game by the powers of influence Texas golf will be underrated.The fall setups of Brook Hollow,Whispering Pines,Dallas National,Lakewood,Northwood,Colonial,Shady Oaks to name a few would all be more highly regarded than they are.Not saying they would be at the tip of everyone's tongue but you would be very happy to spend a lifetime playing them. October through April the bent is like a table it is so firm and fast.Brook Hollow really is sandy which makes it among my favorites anywhere.

[Sam Morrow]

As long as golf is considered a summer game by the powers of influence Texas golf will be underrated.The fall setups of Brook Hollow,Whispering Pines,Dallas National,Lakewood,Northwood,Colonial,Shady Oaks to name a few would all be more highly regarded than they are.Not saying they would be at the tip of everyone's tongue but you would be very happy to spend a lifetime playing them. October through April the bent is like a table it is so firm and fast.Brook Hollow really is sandy which makes it among my favorites anywhere.

As usual my friend from Waco, via Highland Park is right on the money. I don't buy the thing about an architectural void, Texas has lots of wonderful courses, not as many as some places but still wonderful golf. As for all the talk about Texas not having many top 50 courses I laugh at that, there are only 50 top 50 courses. Just because a place doesn't have any doesn't mean the golf is bad. We are very fortunate, we have some wonderful modern courses, standouts like Whispering Pines, Pine Dunes, Old American, Dallas National, Austin Golf Club, and others like Wolf Point and Briggs Ranch that I have not seen. I also have lots of hope in great things next year when Max Mandel opens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sam,

I don't want to rain on your parade but I recently played golf in a sleepy little town where four courses just off the same road, within a mile of each other, that are better than any course in Texas.  Sorry 

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

I don't want to rain on your parade but I recently played golf in a sleepy little town where four courses just off the same road, within a mile of each other, that are better than any course in Texas.  Sorry 

So it proves my point that there are lots of wonderful courses in America. Heck, I should go bump that most underrated country for golf thread, I think the USA is the most underrated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why the architectural void ?

I suspect that this has something to do with the cultural heritage of the region, in contrast to that of the East.  There is a reason that the northeast is also called "New ENGLAND."  Early settlers made conscious attempts to transform their new environment into something that was familiar to them.  The legacy of this is shown through similarities in building architecture, recreational amenities, etc.  Note that Myopia Hunt Club was literally a hunting club first, a golf course second (it probably still is).  Either way, these kids of activities are both derivative of Old World culture, and thus, one of the many reasons they are so prominent in the East.  

Texas, however, was a part of a new American frontier and thus a different mentality with respect to settlement patterns, land use, and cultural interests, likely even well past the historical period to which Pat has re-framed this thread (per response #2).  At the turn of the 20th century, the people of Texas had different expressions of both culture and conspicuous consumption, which were different than those of other states, or regions, in America.  Thus, the so-called "architectural void."  I think this a cultural concern, not one of topography.


Steve,

Even with the cultural divide you mention, it's not like some great architects weren't brought in to ply their trade.

Yet, there seems to be a huge void in high quality courses, and it couldn't be for lack of money.

Is it possible that Jeff Brauer's story is indicative of architectural tastes when it comes to golf courses as well ?

[Sam Morrow]

There was an old naked guy walking the locker room at Prairie Dunes this summer. Does it lose credibility for this?

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
There are a lot of courses nationally that have certain seasons where they really shine--I'm not convinced the seasonal argument carries that much weight. Although, it is true that if October and November are the nicest weather months in parts of the state, then that's not a big travel time for golf for most people. However, much of the south has the same issue and it doesn't seem to hurt courses in Georgia and the Carolinas.

Sam,
I don't think anyone is saying that there aren't good courses in Texas*, and if you're looking at courses in the 6 range I don't doubt they exist in large quantities. But, for a state with that much land and that many people to not have a single course that's truly "elite" is surprising. And even looking at the top 100 modern, Texas still only has 3 courses, one more than New Mexico and even with Oklahoma! Things pick up only after #101, which is my point. I wouldn't complain about playing any of those courses, but probably would not seek them out unless I lived there. 

*--actually Pat might be saying this, so I take that back 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat
What great architects were brought in to ply their trade?
And how long did they stay for?

I do think their golfing priorities are focused squarely on the player not the course.
I once suggested a Houston golf magazine put a golf course on the cover - he said why would they do that, they had never even considered it before - it was always a player - Crenshaw, Nicklaus....

Kyle
Are you trying to protect Wolf Point like Bill did?
What I didn't know was that Bill's "circumstances" meant he enjoyed Wolf Point more than any other in Texas, but he doesn't want to suck up in public.

What is your favorite course in Texas, and if it isn't Wolf Point, where would that fall?

Cheers

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Pat
What great architects were brought in to ply their trade?
And how long did they stay for?

I do think their golfing priorities are focused squarely on the player not the course.
I once suggested a Houston golf magazine put a golf course on the cover - he said why would they do that, they had never even considered it before - it was always a player - Crenshaw, Nicklaus....

Kyle
Are you trying to protect Wolf Point like Bill did?
What I didn't know was that Bill's "circumstances" meant he enjoyed Wolf Point more than any other in Texas, but he doesn't want to suck up in public.

What is your favorite course in Texas, and if it isn't Wolf Point, where would that fall?

Cheers

I really liked Wolf Point and it is definitely in the conversation.  With a maintenance budget in the ball park of the others (if only for the greens) it would be right there.  Holes like 5 & 16 were very memorable.

Austin Golf Club is my favorite place to play in TX. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat
What great architects were brought in to ply their trade?

See reply # 14

And how long did they stay for?

I don't have access to their itinerary

I do think their golfing priorities are focused squarely on the player not the course.

What does that mean ?

And what does it mean in terms of the finished product

I once suggested a Houston golf magazine put a golf course on the cover - he said why would they do that, they had never even considered it before - it was always a player - Crenshaw, Nicklaus....

Probably because their readers would recognize Crenshaw and Nicklaus and wouldn't recognize a hole or course.



Cheers

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Kyle
I haven't been to Austin Golf Club.

Pat
I didn't know if you were referring to modern or classic architects.
Because Fazio, Nicklaus, Player & Palmer have built courses here.

Regarding classic architects, the ratio of number of courses they built in Texas as compared to the NY metro region are similar to the population ratios that Kyle has already stated.
So the probability of a creating a great one is much lower than in the north east.

As for their itinerary, my point was that they spent way more time in the north east allowing for more on-site time at those projects and less on-site time in Texas.

The finished product reflects a more utilitarian style of design.

As for the magazine:
After my suggestion he added a golf course to the cover, and it received such a good response that he continued to do so often for several years afterwards.
They cared, but no one knew - a lot like chunky tomato sauce.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Newport Dunes in Port Aransas (near Corpus Christi) is a great course!

You've got Dunes, sandy soil, ocean views, wind (lots of wind) and a course that can be played with a decent ground game.

Great is certainly a relative term.

Amended to FUN....

What did you not like about the course?

I enjoyed it for what it was, but it was a long way from great.  I liked the single cut of grass.  It was either in play or lost.  I think the paspalum grass leaves a little to be desired - it played really slow.  I'm also not sure that there was a lot of strategic interest to the course.  The wind may actually be too severe at this site as well - without question one of the windiest locations in the US.

Please tell me you people didn't drive all the way down I-37 to skip RCC and play this. I need to hear that.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Newport Dunes in Port Aransas (near Corpus Christi) is a great course!

You've got Dunes, sandy soil, ocean views, wind (lots of wind) and a course that can be played with a decent ground game.

Great is certainly a relative term.

Amended to FUN....

What did you not like about the course?

I enjoyed it for what it was, but it was a long way from great.  I liked the single cut of grass.  It was either in play or lost.  I think the paspalum grass leaves a little to be desired - it played really slow.  I'm also not sure that there was a lot of strategic interest to the course.  The wind may actually be too severe at this site as well - without question one of the windiest locations in the US.

Please tell me you people didn't drive all the way down I-37 to skip RCC and play this. I need to hear that.

I played both many times while visiting an asset that was being built in nearby Ingleside, TX.

[Mark Bourgeois]

...and?

[Bill_McBride]

Pat
What great architects were brought in to ply their trade?
And how long did they stay for?

I do think their golfing priorities are focused squarely on the player not the course.
I once suggested a Houston golf magazine put a golf course on the cover - he said why would they do that, they had never even considered it before - it was always a player - Crenshaw, Nicklaus....

Kyle
Are you trying to protect Wolf Point like Bill did?
What I didn't know was that Bill's "circumstances" meant he enjoyed Wolf Point more than any other in Texas, but he doesn't want to suck up in public.

What is your favorite course in Texas, and if it isn't Wolf Point, where would that fall?

Cheers

What I meant by "circumstances" is the ultimate privacy of Wolf Point and the very limited play and rating by panel members.  If Wolf Point saw 20,000 rounds and 30 raters a year, IMHO it would be a Top 5 in Texas.  

[K. Krahenbuhl]

...and?

It was a lot of fun, but nowhere near the conversation of the best courses in the state.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, to me golf in Texas is very good. If one takes away the golden age courses I find things about the same in the modern era. The number of golden age course are few. and most of them have been changed for the worse. that happened in your area but they went quietly into the night and the ones that had good work done over the years have only become better with time.I honestly see the period of population grwth as the key.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger,

Forget about "Golden Age" courses for a second, where's the quality in post "Golden Age" courses ?

Texas is a great state, but, when it comes to golf, the state seems woefully lacking in great courses.

And, it can't be for a lack of money.

[mike_beene]

If you will draw a circle around Pinehurst and set it aside,then draw a circle around Monterey,and then draw a lone across the country using the Mason- Dixon  and take the whole west( circle Bandon and the Sand Hills) and then is Texas just a subset that looks like the rest of the south and west in course reputation and quality?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I think what surprises me is the lack of visionaries that transformed their dreams into a reality because they had the vision and the money to do so.

Where were the Mike Keiser's, Jack Lupton's, Lowell Schulman's, Ken Bakst's, Roger Hansen's of Texas ?

[mike_beene]

This was a more isolated part of the world and the wealthy people were mostly the product of land and oil and generally not well traveled or even well educated.Those that could went to the Broadmoor for any summer golf before AC .It probably never occurred to them that the old Dallas and Houston clubs were lacking in any way.I doubt they knew much of eastern golf.Somebody thought that a 4 year old Northwood could host an Open.And it did.I doubt anyone gave a second thought to a place like Merion they hadn't heard about anyway.

[Sam Morrow]

A couple things in regards to this thread this afternoon. Rockport CC is a fun course but I can't put it near the top of any Texas lists. There is nothing wrong with it and I would gladly play it everyday but I'm not going to say it's anything special. It's the best country club in greater Corpus, it beats out North Shore, Padre Isles, and CCCC.

As for all the talk about a lack of quality courses in Texas I've changed my mind. There aren't any good courses and I don't want anyone from outside Texas to come visit. More golf for us.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

In the 50's and 60's I have to believe that the wealthy were well traveled and familiar with the great courses of the U.S

I know folks who have their own jets and their own paved landing strips on their ranches.

I also have to believe that they traveled to New York for financial reasons, watched the Masters and visited Pebble Beach and L.A.

And I seem to recall that the folks at Colonial (Ft Worth/Dallas) played in inter club matches with Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes.

Somewhere, there's a disconnect and I can't put my finger on it.

Sam,

Get over it and stop being provincial.
There's a paucity of good to great courses in Texas, the question is..... Why ?