[Patrick_Mucci]

Are there any architectural stars in the second largest State in the Union ?

Can you find a dozen outstanding courses ?

Courses that if they were located in Boston, New York, Philly or Chicago that would be deemed top 5 ?  Top 10 ?

Yes, I know that some will claim that the topography doesn't lend itself to good golf, but the same could be said about Pine Tree, Seminole, Old Marsh, GCGC. Maidstone, Hidden Creek and many other courses dominated by mundane terrain.

Why the architectural void ?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The shortage of golden era architecture.

There are modern courses every but as good as those in the cities listed.  Consider this...

1910 populations:
Boston - 670,000
New York - 4.8 million
Philly - 1.5 million
Chicago - 2.2 million

Dallas - 92,000
Houston - 78,000

[Patrick_Mucci]

The shortage of golden era architecture.

There are modern courses every but as good as those in the cities listed.  Consider this...

1910 populations:
Boston - 670,000
New York - 4.8 million
Philly - 1.5 million
Chicago - 2.2 million

Dallas - 92,000
Houston - 78,000

Kyle,

There weren't many courses in any of those cities in 1910.

What happened after 1910 as America grew in the west ?

Where are the great courses in and around he emerging population centers in Texas ?

Would any of them make the top 10 in any of those other cities ?

Why not ?

Why the paucity of great courses ?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Not a lot of sandy sites there in Texas.

Plenty of wind though. Lots of great players too.

[Tom Culley]

The home of the greatest ever:

Roy McAvoy

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Okay we'll do it again with 1930 census data to include the timeframe of more of the great courses in the cities you listed.

Boston - 780,000
NY - 7 million
Chicago - 3.5 million
Philly - 2 million

Dallas - 260,000
Houston - 300,000

The classic era courses that are favored today were not in high demand in Texas at the time that they were being built.  Only places like River Oaks CC and Brook Hollow were around at that point.

Champions in Houston is an example of a course that was considered great in its era - rated in the top 30 in the US annually by Golf Digest, but it was not built in a style that is currently in vogue.  These things change as history shows.

Today the modern courses in Texas can more than hold their own.  Whispering Pines (Houston), Austin GC (Austin) and Dallas National (Dallas) are as good or better than any modern course in Chicago or Philly.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I have heard that "Pune Tree" is a heckova course!

Generally agree that Texas doesn't have the best Golden Age courses, due to land, limited projects by the bigs, etc.  Ross and Tillie with a few.

I have never traced what lineage of the Golden Age guys ever made it to Texas.  All we here about are Bredemus, Plummer, and sometimes, Maxwell coming south, but even that is more Press than Perry.  Not sure how much Bredemus studied the classics, but it would be interesting to know more about how those guys learned their craft.

[Steve Burrows]

Why the architectural void ?

I suspect that this has something to do with the cultural heritage of the region, in contrast to that of the East.  There is a reason that the northeast is also called "New ENGLAND."  Early settlers made conscious attempts to transform their new environment into something that was familiar to them.  The legacy of this is shown through similarities in building architecture, recreational amenities, etc.  Note that Myopia Hunt Club was literally a hunting club first, a golf course second (it probably still is).  Either way, these kids of activities are both derivative of Old World culture, and thus, one of the many reasons they are so prominent in the East.  

Texas, however, was a part of a new American frontier and thus a different mentality with respect to settlement patterns, land use, and cultural interests, likely even well past the historical period to which Pat has re-framed this thread (per response #2).  At the turn of the 20th century, the people of Texas had different expressions of both culture and conspicuous consumption, which were different than those of other states, or regions, in America.  Thus, the so-called "architectural void."  I think this a cultural concern, not one of topography.

[Jeff_Brauer]

An amusing anecdote about the differences in Texas and NE culture.

Years ago, through a mutual friend, a DFW team, including me, went to meet Paul Fireman (of Rebok fame) as he considered buying a defunct golf course near Boston.  (Being Jewish, he couldn't get into TCC and wanted to start his own, by buying a half built Hurdzan course)

I seemed to get along with him, but as we went through the shell of a clubhouse, the Dallas architect kept saying that "this could be a knockout wet area, with whirlpool, suana, etc."  Fireman joked (repeatedly as it turned out) that "New Englanders don't walk around naked in front of other guys."  But, the architect persisted, despite a few subtle kicks and jabs from me, not listening at all.

Finally, we made a preliminary presentation to his proposed charter members, when the architect brought up the wet areas again.  Fireman asked for a few minutes with his members, and came back to politely tell us that he didn't feel like the Texas team really understood their wants and needs, and he couldn't see us designing his facilty.

A classic lesson in non salesmanship I have never forgotten.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Because the market has been dominated by others.

Have you been looking at the pictures of Wolf Point?

[Jim Hoak]

The comment about a lack of sandy sites rings true.  IMO, the best course in Dallas is Tillinghast's Brook Hollow, which is built on sandy soil, maybe the only in Dallas.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The comment about a lack of sandy sites rings true.  IMO, the best course in Dallas is Tillinghast's Brook Hollow, which is built on sandy soil, maybe the only in Dallas.

BHGC would absolutely be the best with the removal of some of the trees and grass that have cloaked the original design.

[J_ Crisham]

Okay we'll do it again with 1930 census data to include the timeframe of more of the great courses in the cities you listed.

Boston - 780,000
NY - 7 million
Chicago - 3.5 million
Philly - 2 million

Dallas - 260,000
Houston - 300,000

The classic era courses that are favored today were not in high demand in Texas at the time that they were being built.  Only places like River Oaks CC and Brook Hollow were around at that point.

Champions in Houston is an example of a course that was considered great in its era - rated in the top 30 in the US annually by Golf Digest, but it was not built in a style that is currently in vogue.  These things change as history shows.

Today the modern courses in Texas can more than hold their own.  Whispering Pines (Houston), Austin GC (Austin) and Dallas National (Dallas) are as good or better than any modern course in Chicago or Philly.

Kyle,  I would support your case regarding modern architecture in Chicago- other than Black Sheep and Chicago Highlands there is a large void. Not sure that these are as good as Dallas National and the others you mentioned. In Chicago its all about the privates and those are just about all Classic era.

[Bill_McBride]

Because the market has been dominated by others.

Have you been looking at the pictures of Wolf Point?

Under different circumstances, Wolf Point would be top five in Texas. 

[Sven Nilsen]

A sampling of architects' work from Texas:

Findlay:  Beaumont, San Antonio
Bendelow:  Corpus Christi, Dallas, El Paso, Fort Worth, Glen Garden, Lakewood, River Crest, TCC (San Antonio)
Tillinghast:  Brackenridge Park, Brook Hollow, Cedar Crest, Corsicana, Dallas, Fort Sam Houston, Fort Worth, Oak Hills (a/k/a Alamo), San Antonio
Bredemus:  Austin, Cherokee, Colonial, Ebony Hill, Galveston, Glen Garden, Odessa
Maxwell:  Brook Hollow, Colonial, Mount Pleasant, Walnut Hills
Mungo Park:  Galveston
Ross: Galveston Municipal, River Oaks, Sunset Grove
Langford/Moreau:  State Line
Loeffler:  Willow Springs

There were a slew of courses built during the 20's in the small towns of Texas much the way courses were being built throughout the states in the middle of the country, most of these being 9 holers.  Some of these may have been done by the bigger names who passed through, but I'm guessing most of these courses were locally built.  But by 1940 Texas was probably only behind a handful of states (NY, NJ, IL, OH, CA and perhaps a few others) in terms of total number of golf courses.

[Andy Troeger]

Is Texas a state that has a large quantity of good golf but not much that rises to that next level? I can't speak to Brook Hollow, but it seems that Colonial generally carries the flag for the classic era courses and it wouldn't beat any of the 12 courses I played on my only NYC trip. On the modern side, Whispering Pines and Dallas National seem to be the most highly regarded and neither of them are in the top 30 moderns or top 50-75 overall by most estimates. Wolf Point is hard to figure since so few have played it. I expect that the moderns do hold their own with the best moderns in Philly or Chicago, but that bar doesn't strike me as being very high.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think agronomy might have held back Texas courses a bit, although the 1930's experiment with Bent Greens at Colonial was a bold step.

It still seems as if some of the lack of quality design had to do with regional preferences.  Certainly TX had the oil money to hire the best if they wanted to, but Tillie had more courses in NYC than he had in Texas!  Hard to believe only 3 of Ross' 400 courses were in Texas.  Maybe Brad Klein would have some insight - too far to go?   Or that picture of Tillie with the huge rattler in SA scared off the competition?

BTW, while Corsicana claims to be Tillie (back nine expansion) and there are definitely better greens on the back nine, Phil Young really hasn't found any evidence of it, despite them claiming it forever, and the timelines don't really seem to match up very well.

[Mark Saltzman]

Andy, that post is slightly misleading.  Dallas National (33rd) and Whispering Pines (34th) are pretty close to top-30 modern.

[Sven Nilsen]

Take a look at the list of courses that Tillie visited on his "PGA Tour":  http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/Couse_Listing.html

Houston - River Oaks, Houston CC
San Antonio - Brackenridge Park, Riverside
Austin - Austin CC
Waco - Spring Lake, Glen Garden, Worth Hills
Fort Worth - Colonial, Ridglea, Z Boaz, River Crest
Dallas - Lakewood, Dallas, Bob-O-Links, Brook Hollow, Glen Lakes, City Park Municipal, Cedar Crest
Corsicana - Corsicana CC
Tyler- Willowbrook (described by Tillie as a "terrible layout")
Galveston - Brae Burn, River Oaks, Houston CC, Galveston CC
Lufkin - Memorial Park Municipal

My guess is that these were the courses in existence around 1935 that were worth seeing in the state, at least worth seeing in terms of Tillinghast's role for the PGA.

The web page above has a link to the various letters Tillie wrote concerning each course, which will give you a pretty good idea of what he thought about each of their merits or lack thereof.

[Jim Hoak]

Kyle--Regarding your comments on the design of Brook Hollow, and the cloaking of it by trees, etc., the course is in the final stages (last 3 holes) of a major restoration, seeking to bring Tillinghast back.  Have you seen that?  I'll let you draw your own conclusions about the success.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I could change it to top 15-20 if you'd prefer, but my bigger point is that there isn't a single course in Texas that's widely considered to be among the top fifty in the country. All four Bandon courses by most estimates beat the best course in the state of Texas. There are courses in the big metro areas of Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana that are rated higher on the Modern list.

I like Dallas National and think it deserves to be in the top 100 nationally and haven't played Whispering Pines but will assume its at least in that same quality level. Its just seems odd that there isn't a truly elite course in the state. Is the land that lacking?

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Newport Dunes in Port Aransas (near Corpus Christi) is a great FUN course!

You've got Dunes, sandy soil, ocean views, wind (lots of wind) and a course that can be played with a decent ground game.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Kyle--Regarding your comments on the design of Brook Hollow, and the cloaking of it by trees, etc., the course is in the final stages (last 3 holes) of a major restoration, seeking to bring Tillinghast back.  Have you seen that?  I'll let you draw your own conclusions about the success.

Jim - I haven't seen that work.  There is a lot of potential there.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Newport Dunes in Port Aransas (near Corpus Christi) is a great course!

You've got Dunes, sandy soil, ocean views, wind (lots of wind) and a course that can be played with a decent ground game.

Great is certainly a relative term.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Newport Dunes in Port Aransas (near Corpus Christi) is a great course!

You've got Dunes, sandy soil, ocean views, wind (lots of wind) and a course that can be played with a decent ground game.

Great is certainly a relative term.

Amended to FUN....

What did you not like about the course?

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