Assessing Medinah

[John Kavanaugh]

Based from what I have seen on TV this is not my kind of course.

Matt,

If you could play Medinah exactly as it sits today from a correct set of tees what wouldn't you like?

[Mark Johnson]

Based from what I have seen on TV this is not my kind of course.

Matt,

If you could play Medinah exactly as it sits today from a correct set of tees what wouldn't you like?

Is that possible?  JR, will they be reopening #3 for a few weeks in October?   

[Steve Lapper]

I would think the consensus view should be that Jones and the super have gotten the course to it's best-ever tournament presentation.

Terry,

I'd agree 100%. They made it look very good on TV......just not good enough to merit architectural respect on more than 2-3 holes.

S

[John McCarthy]

My buddy claims he was invited out to play 3 tomorrow.  The fairways are fine
 

[JR Potts]

Based from what I have seen on TV this is not my kind of course.

Matt,

If you could play Medinah exactly as it sits today from a correct set of tees what wouldn't you like?

It opens on Friday for members...but I was asked if I could play tomorrow at 6:30am....I had to decline unfortunately.


What a week...
Is that possible?  JR, will they be reopening #3 for a few weeks in October?   

[JWinick]

I was there today - what a great finish.   After watching the action from the Hagen pavilion, going from tv to 14 tee to approach on 18 and green on 18, I really got an appreciation on what's important for a venue for a big event - and it's not the architecture.   

I was told Medinah, which they may split this, made about 13MM on the event.  As a non-profit, you can pull up Medinahs tax return in a year or so and be able to see how much of an impact to the bottom line.   By any measure, it was a home run.   Does the course succeed in creating a great venue for a major?  Yes.  There must have been 30 suites around 18 alone and each one was 150K.

After playing the course before the renovation, I can say the latest renovation improved the golf course.   It no longer feels claustrophobic and you have real chances for recovery shots.  I stood right behind the tree on 18 that Poulter hit over yesterday.   Ryan, they must have cleared the trees a bit on this hole to give better views to spectators and suite holders?   I bet Pouter would have had to chip back to the fairway or hit a low cut rather than boldly go over the tree.   

While there are some weaknesses to the course (one too many par 3s over the water, a pedestrian stretch in the middle of the course, the water hazard on the wrong side on 15), it's very solid and an excellent venue.   There are some phenomenal holes, particularly the stretch from 12 to 17.
The Ryder Cup brought out the best of the course.   I was fortunate to be invited at the last minute.   

[Carl Rogers]

Did the 15th hole work as advertised? Not really??

It seemed to weigh too heavily on the risk and not the reward of making a 2.

I remember Dufner driving the green, going most of the way to the back of the green and making a good 2 putt.
He could have layed up and hit a wedge as close as his approach putt.

[SL_Solow]

Carl;  Interesting perspsective.  Before the matches Brad suggested that the equation weighed too heavily the other way positing that a drive near the green in the water made for a relatively easy par so that the penalty was lessened.  I spent a good part of Friday at the hole and saw it played both ways; wedges were not that easy to get close.  I thought the hole played better than expected.  I think it is hard to judge based on 3 days of limited play with an atypical wind.  As for the course as a whole, Medinah is much improved.  Cutis did a wonderful job preparing it under difficult conditions.  The tree removal made for more recovery shots, better turf, and the ability to feel and be impacted by the wind.  But the course is what it is; a long, heavily treed parkland course.  It will never be everyone's cup of tea but it is intended to be a brute.  Given today's conditions, even that is not enough to stop the best players although at least they were required to play clubs other than short and mid irons from time to time.  For many average players, it is too difficult to really enjoy.  But the club has 3 courses and after the proposed changes to number 1, at least 2 of them should provide a test that others can enjoy.  If the club members want a brute, so be it so long as as outside observers understand what they are evaluating.  For me, the biggest issue with Medinah over the years was that many area courses viewed it as an ideal and tried to imitate it when their membership might have been better served with a course containing more options.

[Carl Rogers]

Did the 15th hole work as advertised? Not really??

It seemed to weigh too heavily on the risk and not the reward of making a 2.

I remember Dufner driving the green, going most of the way to the back of the green and making a good 2 putt.
He could have layed up and hit a wedge as close as his approach putt.

To continue my thought about 15 ... it also seems that the lay-up tee shot did not really offer any real thinking or challenge ... such as a center left fairway bunker at 220 yards or extending the water hazard into the direct line of play at about the same distance.  Then the golfer that does lay-up has to ponder tee shot options of short, long or left.  Or as Medinah has plenty of trees, why not use one left and short of the green?

[Phil McDade]

Carl:

Ryan Potts has posted elsewhere that the layup does provide some awkwardness to the second shot, but maybe it's awkward for mere mortals and not RCup-caliber players. I got a sense that the wind changed around on the last day of play -- more out of the south, and thus into the wind on 15 (which runs southwest) vs. the earlier days of play, when I believe it played more downwind.

To me, it looked like a somewhat risky shot to go for that green, as the land sort of funnels ball to the right and something that landed in the fairway could kick right (esp. with the firm and dry conditions that Medinah had). It seemed several players simply cranked a shot left and didn't mind landing in that bunker greenside left (given that it was a relatively easy bunker shot). The 15th feels like the most wide-open hole out there -- you're less conscious of the trees there than any other hole there, it seems.

[Josh Tarble]

I thought Medinah was an absolutely fantastic venue.  I believe it challenge the players in every facet of their game and seemed to expose major weaknesses and ability to execute down the finish.

The thing that stood out to me was I think it really showcased how different of a game the pros play from everyone else.  To me, the course looked extremely difficult...but the way they played it showed how good they were and the course held up brilliantly.

I think that cutting the rough down was a key factor as well, but one that made it far more exciting in my opinion.

[Phil McDade]

Josh:

I agree, and having the course in really fast and firm conditions -- maybe as fast and firm as you can get an American parkland course -- helped as well, as did the appearances of some fresh winds every day, which added uncertainty.

[Josh Tarble]

Phil, good points as well.  I'm not sure the weather could have been more perfect. Both for the course conditions and play.

All in all, I was amazed at how well the course showcased great shots and punished poor ones. 

[Jud_T]

The best thing that happened to the club was Europe's comeback.  Now Medinah will be assured of getting the event again ASAP.  Of course next time they won't be able to build infrastructure on #1.  Anyone for redoing the ladies course in 2023?

[Adam Clayman]

If you never heard about texture, you ain't listening. While it's been a while since there was actual finer point discussion, to me, textures are essential. The break up of colors, created by introducing the browns and reds, have both an aesthetic and psychological effect. They contrast the verdant and can add to perception difficulties.

ie. The 17th at Wild Horse has a pinch point created by a bunker right and the native left. Upon needing to decide how and where to lay up, the combination works to both confuse and challenge the golfer.

There's nothing more base, than all green, all the time, everywhere.

[Phil Benedict]

Is there an alternative routing that would have avoided 3 par 3's with forced carries over water?

[George Pazin]

Could just be my aging memory, but I don't remember water being as prevalent in Tiger's PGAs.

Looks like a wonderful place to play, probably even better to belong. It would kill a wild game like mine. Kinda reminds me of Sawgrass in that respect - endlessly fascinating for a very good player, endless torture for a dabbler.

[JR Potts]

George, I have to say this:

I don't know what they'd need to do to change some peoples' minds.   

The best thing we've done over the last 4 years is that we've finally stopped caring about other people's minds.

Thanks for the kind words.  Like I've been stating on this site for some time, a lot of the opinions on here (especially from the ignorant likes of Jay Flemma) were based on faulty information, rooted in group think and what appeared to be a desire to ingratiate ones self with ones "peers."  The world saw Medinah for what it is this past week.  While it may not be everyone's cup of tea, that's fine. 

I must say though, the one critique I don't get is the critique over the three par 3s over water being too similar.  While it may have appeared that way as the tips of back tee boxes were played each day, the holes, on a day to day basis, play entirely different.  I guess the turf texture comment has me perplexed but I didn't initially pick up on it. 

Oh well, to each their own.  Thanks for all the nice messages - time to start complaining about Gleneagles 2014.

[George Pazin]

George, I have to say this:

I don't know what they'd need to do to change some peoples' minds.   

The best thing we've done over the last 4 years is that we've finally stopped caring about other people's minds.

Thanks for the kind words.  Like I've been stating on this site for some time, a lot of the opinions on here (especially from the ignorant likes of Jay Flemma) were based on faulty information, rooted in group think and what appeared to be a desire to ingratiate ones self with ones "peers."  The world saw Medinah for what it is this past week.  While it may not be everyone's cup of tea, that's fine. 

I must say though, the one critique I don't get is the critique over the three par 3s over water being too similar.  While it may have appeared that way as the tips of back tee boxes were played each day, the holes, on a day to day basis, play entirely different.  I guess the turf texture comment has me perplexed but I didn't initially pick up on it. 

Oh well, to each their own.  Thanks for all the nice messages - time to start complaining about Gleneagles 2014.

I hope you didn't take my post as a criticism. I could say the same thing about a lot of the top golf courses in the world - it's more of a criticism of players like me than a criticism of the golf course.

I don't think the par 3s play similarly, just that they appear superficially similar. That's not a criticism of the course, that's a criticism of the critics.

Thanks for the insight, Shivas.

[Tim_Cronin]

George, I have to say this:

I was massively impressed with what they've done with Medinah. Medinah used to be a pure chip-out-sideways course.  It simply ain't that anymore. They've created plenty of alleys and canopies to try heroic shots when you miss off the tee.  I saw a bunch of them at the Ryder Cup. The greens have loads of contour. And the bunkers are well placed.  This is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT golf course than what people played, say, 10 years ago.  I don't know what they'd need to do to change some peoples' minds.  Mickelson blasted one of the most awesome shots out of the left trees on #12 on Friday I think I've ever seen to about 10 feet and the place went electric - that shot was IMPOSSIBLE before this re-do because there were 15 more trees in the way.  The only shot would have been a 90 degree chip out.  This is a new course, and it's far, far better for it. 

This. The long, hard slog is still long and hard, but it's also an adventure now. Hope they keep the rough low and the excitement level high, for member play and whatever they might land.

[Matthew Rose]

It looks to me like the par-3s have all been altered somewhat to try and create different shots.... I have an old Arnold Palmer book from the 70s with a picture of #2 at Medinah in it and was comparing it to the current hole. The 70s version of the hole had a bunker on the left and was much more of a neutral shot. The 2012 hole has water much more in play left and seems to ask for more of a draw.

Conversely, #17 seems to play much more left to right than I remember. I seem to recall from the '90 US Open that it was kind of a shallow, wide green right behind the lake and hard on it.

So, for all the grief I give Rees, at least he did appear to try to instill some different shot strategies on those holes.

[Howard Riefs]

Ryan,

I liked how #1 and #18 played with the back of the green shaved and the resulting chipping area. Was that specifically for the RC? If so, will those holes continue to have that feature?

[JR Potts]

Ryan,

I liked how #1 and #18 played with the back of the green shaved and the resulting chipping area. Was that specifically for the RC? If so, will those holes continue to have that feature?

1 and 18 have had the run-off feature for 4 years.  Those will remain.  The members have played with reduced rough for over a year now.  I presume it will stay but I, alone, will not make that decision.

[Sven Nilsen]

Anyone notice how the misses on the par 3's over water were either short right or long left?  Seems like we went over this somewhere else before.

[Phil McDade]

Anyone notice how the misses on the par 3's over water were either short right or long left?  Seems like we went over this somewhere else before.

Probably on 13 and 17 -- I seem to recall the wind coming across the lake from the player's right on both those tees, at least on Fri. and Sat. That's a wind in which a guy hitting a draw could miss long and left, and a guy trying to hit a cut would end up short and right.