Assessing Medinah

[Brad Klein]

Overall, it's the kind of parkland American classic that embodies a certain limited style of golf, with some strengths and some limitations:

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/25/medinah-brawny-track-its-modern-makeovers/

As for course set up and hole-by-hole this week, there will be no US advantage in having the rough cut down and the intermediate lane widened, mainly because there's virtually no statistical difference in how the US and European teams drive the ball.

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/26/ryder-cup-medinah-country-club-hole-hole/

[Rich Goodale]

Don't forget, Dave, that we've got the guys with the belly putters!

[Mark Smolens]

Seems as if I've seen Simpson and Bradley using those belly putters to pretty good results under extreme (that is, major) pressure.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I fail to see how less rough will produce more birdies – maybe less bogeys but more birdies?

Unless David Love has some clever short cuts in mind!!!

[Brad Klein]

DSchmidt, obviously there are lots of factors, including who is a better putter, etc. All I know is that driving it more wildly or more accurately or longer is not a factor here. And that's simply an extrapolation from one data set. I much prefer looking at evidence as part of an argument rather than speculating without any.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

OK DSchmidt,

I'll be counting over the weekend.

Bunker birdies don't count!!

[Steve Lapper]

Birdies and Bogies notwithstanding, Medinah is monotonous. After one factors in the hole-dividing forests, Lake Kadijah, slight elevation changes and speedy greens, it's barely above featureless.  That said, it is a beefy, tough, shotmaker's course.......just one that dulls the senses after any regular playing diet. Such blandness works perfectly for the bomb and gouge  PGA'ers.

I can't wait for Johnny and his group of merry media mooks to heap their moronic praise on the course and it's "strategergy" (sic)

There are dozen's of other US Parkland courses that exemplify better architecture, terrific test and lots more fun.....it's just sad IMHO, that the PGA hasn't a clue they exist!

[Terry Lavin]

Birdies and Bogies notwithstanding, Medinah is monotonous. After one factors in the hole-dividing forests, Lake Kadijah, slight elevation changes and speedy greens, it's barely above featureless.  That said, it is a beefy, tough, shotmaker's course.......just one that dulls the senses after any regular playing diet. Such blandness works perfectly for the bomb and gouge  PGA'ers.

I can't wait for Johnny and his group of merry media mooks to heap their moronic praise on the course and it's "strategergy" (sic)

There are dozen's of other US Parkland courses that exemplify better architecture, terrific test and lots more fun.....it's just sad IMHO, that the PGA hasn't a clue they exist!

Slapper,

I agree with the substance of your take on Medinah, not that I'd be so harsh about it.  The fact that the three par-3's are very similar visually, with a shot across the same lake looking at a green just beyond the bulkhead does take away from the fact that each is a pretty good hole on its own merits.  The fourth par-3 is eminently forgettable.

I don't think Medinah is "monotonous", I would just say that it is long, hard, tight and demanding.  It has a consistent look, with towering oaks on either side of the fairway on pretty much every par-4 and par-5, but there are some pretty special greensites out there and some pretty dramatic shots into greens, like #4 and #14.

At the end of the day, however, your point that the course is essentially made for pro tournament play is spot-on.  When Doak is finished with his work on the #1 course, I predict that the number of rounds played on the tournament course will drop significantly, because the #1 course will be eminently more fun and playable than the slog on #3.

[Phil McDade]

Terry:

That was sort of my first take on it -- in comparing it to Beverly (just to choose one similar course in the same town). Beverly struck me as a very good members course that you could play alot with feeling beat up (even though it's a very good challenge), yet it's probably -- in the main -- not able to challenge players at this (Ryder Cup) level in the way that Medinah does. Medinah looks like a course that can challenge the very best golfers on the planet, yet I'm not sure I'd want to be a member there and have it be my only choice to play. I still think it's a very good course, but good in a way that a tetenus shot is good.

Medinah, to me -- at nearly 7,700 yards -- strikes me as the epitome of why it's almost silly to talk about golf architecture in the way we do here on GCA. The needs of a golf course to challenge these guys is completely different than what we talk about in terms of quality architecture.

[Ivan Morris]

Medinah is too darn long for normal mortals. Getting past the doglegs is beyond most of us. When I played there I had to hit driver, 9-iron, 9-iron at more than one of the par fours.   

[Jud_T]

Colsaerts just shot 63.  Time to get Reese back on the horn.  It does look like the tree pruning has reduced the claustrophobia since I last played the course.  Of course, with my average game, penchant for fun over masochism and desire to actually watch tournament golf and not the back of some drunk's head, I'll probably never see it again in person.  

[Terry Lavin]

Medinah is too darn long for normal mortals. Getting past the doglegs is beyond most of us. When I played there I had to hit driver, 9-iron, 9-iron at more than one of the par fours.   

Tee it forward!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Brad has access to more and better statistical data. However at first glance I would think the course set up does help the USA team to some degree. It keeps Phil and Tiger competitive at the very least. As David noted it will allows for more birdies which certainly keeps he crowd active. It may keep the larger audience excited but I personally do not like it. I like rough and high fringe. It puts a premium of good shots and strategy and a penalty of bad ones. I really like to see the skills that come forward with more challenging shots. I struggled all day with was Davis doing the right thing in the area of course set up for the US team or for TV.  Match play has a way of making a tour set up fun to watch but frankly speaking this type of set up is why a typical tour stop is painful to watch on tv.

[Terry Lavin]

We were talking at  Medinah today about how much FUN it would be to play that course with that setup. It would be a lot more enjoyable than the usual 4 inch rough. I'm pretty sure the club will try it for a club event next year.

[Mark Johnson]

I liked both Medinah courses as great demanding stroke play tests.

 Before the Ryder Cup, I wasn't sure what I thought of it as a match play course.    I tend to like it a little more as a 4somes course vs. 4-ball and I think the limited rough hurts it in this aspect.   (Personally, I would have like to see a setup with short rough in the fairway but longer rough around the green.)

Note sure if this has been thought of but I think after Tommy is done, there could be an outstanding hybrid routing for tournament play.  For instance, i would like to work holes 8 and 9 from course 1 into the tournament 18.   (i dont know the routing well enough to know exactly how feasible tha twould be.)

[Phil McDade]

I thought the course really was great today -- good play (Colsaerts and Bradley, notably) was rewarded with birdies, while poor or indifferent shots were penalized. It looked to play quite fast and firm, and who didn't enjoy all of these great players hitting long irons and hybrids/woods into greens? Putting was challenging without being over-the-top difficult. And I think it's a really good match-play course; the last 6 holes, where nearly all matches are decided, include two tough par 3s over water, a gambling par 4 and 5, and some tough par 4s. The anticipation of watching those shots from on high on 13 and 17 come down for a landing is terrific stuff.

[JR Potts]

We were talking at  Medinah today about how much FUN it would be to play that course with that setup. It would be a lot more enjoyable than the usual 4 inch rough. I'm pretty sure the club will try it for a club event next year.

The Club has generally been playing the course with this set-up for two years...you have just happened to play it during the last two Mays while everything was growing in.

[Matthew Rose]

A few questions for those familiar with Medinah.

Do you feel the course is better now or did you prefer it pre-Packard? What was it about the old 18th hole that made them decide to re-route half the back nine?

I never saw the course until the '90 US Open so I don't know much about the original configuration. It looks like the old par-3 14th was not terribly interesting.

With two par-threes over Lake Kadijah already, I would have liked to have seen them put one hole parallel to it rather than cross it just for variety.

[cary lichtenstein]

Birdies and Bogies notwithstanding, Medinah is monotonous. After one factors in the hole-dividing forests, Lake Kadijah, slight elevation changes and speedy greens, it's barely above featureless.  That said, it is a beefy, tough, shotmaker's course.......just one that dulls the senses after any regular playing diet. Such blandness works perfectly for the bomb and gouge  PGA'ers.

I can't wait for Johnny and his group of merry media mooks to heap their moronic praise on the course and it's "strategergy" (sic)

There are dozen's of other US Parkland courses that exemplify better architecture, terrific test and lots more fun.....it's just sad IMHO, that the PGA hasn't a clue they exist!

I'd to basically agree with your observations. Not what I would call a fun golf course, wears you done...happy to just finish and get to the bar.

[Sean_A]

Other than the 15th, which I think has worked quite well even of the aesthetics aren't quite right, the 12th looks most interesting to me with its use of large trees.  For folks in the know - how does this hole play?

Ciao

[Terry Lavin]

The twelfth is probably the best big par-4 in Chicago. Long left to right dogleg to a big green built precariously into a hillside that hangs over a big pond. Great parkland golf hole.

[Adam Clayman]

You cannot just cut grass for an event. You have to train grass to be a certain height.

[John Kavanaugh]

Spend a winter in Chicago and you just might find that by the time your testicles drop in late spring you are not bored by a big boy course.

[Josh Tarble]

More than anything else, I've thought the course has shown just how much of a different game these guys are playing from the rest of golf. They've ripped it apart for the most part.

[Phil McDade]

Other than the 15th, which I think has worked quite well even of the aesthetics aren't quite right, the 12th looks most interesting to me with its use of large trees.  For folks in the know - how does this hole play?

Ciao

Sean:

I think 12 is a really good hole -- both aesthetically (it had that "wow" factor when I first saw it, and it's quite evident from the tee, because there is a bit of a rise before the tee) and how it plays. It bends to the right, although not as sharply as the bends in other Medinah #3 doglegs. The hole's fairway banks sharply from left to right, so balls may roll out toward the right side of the fairway. Then the second shot is somewhat uphill, with a big falloff right. You're likely to have some sort of a hanging lie, with the ball below your feet, with a shot that feels like it needs to go left, because the green is offset left slightly from the fairway. So the approach shot seems like it'd be a real challenge.