"Outing" Golf

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Here's a rant about "outing" golf.

I belong to a non-real-estate club (the Tour of Greater Boston).  We play about 50 events per year, a few at private courses.  On Monday, we played Andover CC in Andover, MA.  It was the epitome of what I call "outing" golf:

--  Cart paths only, because we're an "outing."  Members can drive on the fairways all we want, but outings must stay on the paths.  Naturally, this slows everything down.

--  Everyone in our tournament was to play from the white tees, which on the card are 6319 yards.  Based on past experience, our organizers asked the club repeatedly to make sure that the tees were actually set at 6300 to 6400 yards.  The club said no problem.  When we arrived, almost all of the white tees were set in the gold/red teeing boxes, making the course play about 5700 to 5800 yards.

--  Outings are usually held on Mondays, which is also the traditional day for maintenance.  The club saw no problem in doing both.  Maintenance crews swarmed the course throughout the round, often working directly in our line of play.  On one hole, two of them (and their tractors) worked on the red tee area 75 yards in front of us.  When we signaled them to move aside for us to hit, they signaled us to play right over them.  Nobody got hurt, but it didn't make for ideal playing conditions.

--  The standard outing contract at Andover specifies that a scramble is the only tournament format allowed!  We managed to get an exception on this one.

I understand that many outings at such clubs are attended by people who don't really play golf, and aren't familiar with etiquette and fast play practices.  But our group is an experienced club, and we still can't get a decent outing.

And I'm sure that not every private club that hosts outings is this bad.  I just haven't yet played at one.

[Mike Hendren]

murph,

You are welcome to stay at my house any time if you don't mind:  1) a full sized bed instead of a king; 2) me mowing the yard on Saturday morning; 3) parking in the drive-way and not on the grass; 4) bath towels a little shorter than I'd like; and 5) a cocker-spaniel that wants in if she's out and out if she's in.  

You were there for the same reason that Flounder was voted in to Delta Tau Chi:  They needed the dues.

Kidding aside, if a club choses to host outings, it should be a gracious host.  

I always keep in mind that "outing" golf is not really golf at all.

Regards,

Mike

[David_Tepper]

I would hope that the member who organized your outing at Andover CC or the president of your group writes a letter to Andover CC expressing your displeasure with how they hosted the event. If Andover CC made explicit promises to your group regarding the conditions of play and failed to meet those conditions, they should be held accountable. If they do not respond, write them a second letter telling them your group will never play there again. There is not much else you can do.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

The people who run our club are very good at this sort of thing, so I know they will express their displeasure.  Most likely, we will not return to Andover, since many of the members didn't enjoy the experience.

My fear is that next year we'll try a different private club, and find the same thing there too!

[tonyt]

I run a corporate golf day every 3-4 weeks for my company, in which between 12-30 of our staff are involved, depending on the supplier paying and hosting us  

I've always been big on the issue of tees used, not just so much to make sure we play some length, but because as a mixed group (with about 3-6 women each time), there has to be a reasonable distance advantage for the part time corporate female golfer.

It is amazing how often one has to switch potential venues, because occasionally, a club will not budge on this issue, and the gals get 5 yards advantage on the guys on 15 holes. Especially when our corporate group is an experienced, very properly dressed, properly behaved assembly, who spends the first twenty seconds on each green each repairing about 3-4 members' ball marks each, and going through more sand in divot repairs than a member does in a month.

The clubs in many instances really need the corporate fees to supplement their income. Well then, they need to decide. Take the money and be proper hosts, or decline the privileges in favour of members' privacy and therefore the income. Many want it both ways. Those that don't get our custom.

[David Wigler]

Marty,

Your question is a very slippery slope.  A private club exists for the benefit of its members.  Outings are a deal with the devil because they bring revenue that is necessary in tough economic times but also typically bring people who have no idea what to do on a golf course.

To have an outing any day but Monday would inconvience the membership.  To not perform maintenance on Monday would leave the course in inferior shape for the membership.  To allow carts on the course typically (And I am sorry if your group is an exception) would rip the course apart for the membership (Even you must admit that you have seen way to many outing golfers not repair divots, not fix ball marks and drive carts next to greens).  My guess is that your group refused to walk, which would be the safest way to prevent an outing from ripping up a course, but then you were unhappy with the restriction on carts.  Even the tee box issue is defensible.  Most outing golfers cannot handle back tees.  On the other hand, if you were promised differently, the course was wrong.  If you want to go to private courses, you must understand that you are their guest!  That is why they are private.  

[Martin Del Vecchio]

David, I understand your points, and I accept the fact that many outings are populated by people with little knowledge of golf and its etiquette.

But regardless of how much you know about golf and its etiquette, you pay the same $$ for the outing.  I just believe that if I pay for an outing, I should not be subjected to maintenance workers who don't care if they're interfering with us, and getting drenched by sprinklers.

The cart path issue is a little different, since that's not integral to the outing.  The club is trying to save their turf from damage by outsiders.  But they should know that that slows things down, and they shouldn't schedule another outing just after the first one, and get upset when all of the carts aren't back and cleaned 4.5 hours after our outing started.

[David Wigler]

David, I understand your points, and I accept the fact that many outings are populated by people with little knowledge of golf and its etiquette.

But regardless of how much you know about golf and its etiquette, you pay the same $$ for the outing.  I just believe that if I pay for an outing, I should not be subjected to maintenance workers who don't care if they're interfering with us, and getting drenched by sprinklers.

The cart path issue is a little different, since that's not integral to the outing.  The club is trying to save their turf from damage by outsiders.  But they should know that that slows things down, and they shouldn't schedule another outing just after the first one, and get upset when all of the carts aren't back and cleaned 4.5 hours after our outing started.

Marty,

Were you offered the chance to walk?  If yes and you declined, then I support the clubs position on cart restrictions.  If the course did not allow walking, then you have a point.

As for maintenance, you know the deal you make.  The course has to do maintenance on Mondays.  Many of us caddied as kids.  We got to play on Monday's.  We never complained about the maintenance workers on the greens, tees, fairways, etc.  The simple solution is to hold your events only on public courses.  I suspect that you do not do this because the opportunity to play private courses is a nice treat.  The clubs deal with the devil is that they need the revenue.  Your deal is that they treat you like a guest and not like a member as the CCFAD might that needs you to survive.  It is OK to hold them to their promises (ie. tee boxes) but you have to know going in that maintenance is performed on Mondays, etc.

[tonyt]

David,

In many modern instances, it is without the revenue from outings that many of these private clubs cannot exist. A golf club that has folded provides NO services to it's members whatsoever. No course, clubhouse, grill room, nothing.

The "owners" are entitled to priveliges, but must respect that it is the "tenants" that help pay for them and provide them. If it didn't, they'd be among the private clubs that discourage or disallow outings.

And I must strongly disagree with one point you made. Loyal loving members are NOT automatically more disciplined in maintaining their course. As I have said, on our corporate outings at private clubs, we go out on Monday mornings after weekend member play and each repair numerous ballmarks per green.

[Steve Wilson]

For five years in a row I played in an outing at a private club that was held on the first Monday after Labor Day.  They didn't restrict the carts to the paths, but every year all the greens had been punched.  And every year they tried to raise the fees.  Finally they hit us with a 50% increase and the group ended up going elsewhere.  We later learned that the club had weathered their finanacial difficulties and no longer "needed" the revenue,  and once it became found money rather than necessary they tried to make a real killing off of us.  It may well be that they had aerated their greens on the same schedule long before the outing came to their club and that they continue to maintain on the same schedule, but it seemed to me an ungracious way of letting us know they would take our money but didn't really want us there.

I also play in a golf league where the club has fallen on hard times and is desperate for the cash.  They not only allow carts to roam freely, they allow carts in weather conditions under which I wouldn't allow carts at all.  I can't see how they make a profit on this considering the amount of damage the cart traffic does to the course.

[David Wigler]

David,

And I must strongly disagree with one point you made. Loyal loving members are NOT automatically more disciplined in maintaining their course. As I have said, on our corporate outings at private clubs, we go out on Monday mornings after weekend member play and each repair numerous ballmarks per green.

TonyT,

I do not think we disagree here at all.  I belong to two clubs and it troubles me to no end that members do not fix their ball marks, divots, etc.  One of them has caddies, so this helps as the caddies take care of the members apathy.  The distinction I was trying to draw is that the members own the course.  I may leave my underwear on the floor of my own house but I would not do it when staying with a friend.

I do not think anyone would dispute that the majority of outing golf punishes the golf course.  Many clubs here in the US are desperate for the revenue (The rumor in Michigan is that the only other Pete Dye / Jack Nicklaus course in the US besides Harbor Town is going to declare bankruptcy on 9/1 - They have already raised dues to $1,200 a month and are publicly advertising for outings).  Clubs that want revenue but are not desperate are only trying to protect their owners (The members) by these restrictions.  As I said first, if the club made promises and did not deliver, the club was wrong.  If the club offered to let the outing walk, and the outing insisted on carts, then I am very good with the restrictions.

Quick side point - Cuscowilla will let anyone walk anytime.  If you insist on a cart, it is cart path only to protect the course - and they are public.