Shelf life of greens...

[Kevin_Reilly]

3.  I played Olympic just before it closed for the Open.  The greens showed no ball marks.  I played it after the Open.  Still no ball marks.  Olympic Lake gets lots of play, while my home course (bent) gets very light action yet shows every mark it seems.  Olympic greens were rebuilt to USGA standards I assume.  Why does it not show many marks?

The greens are relatively new, which leads to firmer greens as there is less thatch, but another contributor was the aggressive management of thatch in order to make the greens play firm for the Open.  I would expect the greens to play softer over time (while still firm compared to most greens).  The new bent greens on the Ocean course won't stay firm as long as the new greens on the Lake Cse.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL,

David Fay once said words to the effect that if grasses were drugs the FDA wouldn't let half of them out of the lab.

The problem with a number of grasses is the lack of a multi-year data base.

How are they affected by sunlight, water, pesticides, fertilizer and other applicants, along with wear and tear and lower cutting heights.

One can only hope.

But, in the northeast, poa isn't such a bad grass.

I know that many fight it's introduction, but, it seems that sooner or later, it rears its invasive head  (pun intended)

So, the question, one posed by Mike Nuzzo is, is it the push up green that's done well for 80-100 years or is it the height of cut that's the culprit.

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  Again, I am not an agronomist but I don't think anyone would argue that height of cut is a factor.  However, I also think it has become a fact of life, like it or not we are not going back to green speeds that you and I grew up with.  I also think there is more at work.  Within the last several years there have been at least 2 summers  in the northern part of the USA with record heat.  Partiularly troublesome has been the lack of cooling at night.  Poa is shallow rooted.  With soil temperatures over 100 degrees at times, the shallow roots get fried.  Deeper rooted grasses have a much better chance.  As to experience with grasses, the point is well taken; see e.g. Crenshaw Bent.  But the testing is much better today and some greens in our area have more than a decade experience with A.1/A4

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jon,  reply with quote hasn't worked in a while, so I had to cut and paste.

I think there are many old courses that have cut in drainage, whether XGD or not, to their topsoil greens.
Jeff, many also had tiled drainage installed at construction

This is true.  In digging up hundreds of old greens, I see lots of different type of construction and ammendments.  But, long before USGA greens, builders seemed to realize they needed better soil and drainage in greens.

Most have topdressed to have some kind of sand base for the first several inches.
Most pushups are the local soil improved with sand mixed in. Although they may have been topdressed with sand (though the best is with the rootzone mixture) the rate of surface lift is so gradual that any pure sand topdresses get plenty of organic material added though the swards growth. There would not be a layer of sand as you seem to imply. One of the problems with USGA thought process is that their specs are really precious but are quickly compromised through topdressing

Well, I have seen it.  Two quarter inch topdressings per year over 100 years does add up!  And, think Pinehurst, where the greens themselves became domes because of topdressing.  It does happen.

To say that old topsoil greens have lasted 100 years without some help and change along the way is probably not quite accurate.  If they have, its likely that its because they are private clubs with low play and good water in the NE.

There are many example of old greens that are native soil based, seeing large numbers of player and being in good condition. Statements like the last are just lame Jeff.

Then name me some, please.  I recall discussions here about Oakmont being untouched, and Forrest R came in to say Jack Snyder had rebuilt the root zone back in 1962 (?)  I don't know of a course with topsoil greens that hasn't tried to add sand by core aerification, pulling plugs, dragging in sand, and adding topdressing.  But, I haven't seen every course in the world, obviously.  In short, I am very wary, based on what I have seen over 33 years, that many old greens are "untouched."

I believe sand based greens are more effective in most climates, although I agree that looking at each climate and micro climate to really tune the construction method is probably better than a one size fits all.

Trying to have it both ways.

What a BS statement by you.  No pat answers in the real world.  Study the situation, do what's best for the client considering climate and budget.  Not "trying to have it both ways" at all.  Just always trying to pick the best way for that situation.  Every time out. 

[Jeff Goldman]

I believe Oakmont has XGD and recall you could see the lines during the US Open. Pretty happy with it from what I hear, though like a lot of others they have had some issues in prior years.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,  reply with quote hasn't worked in a while, so I had to cut and paste.
I have issues from time to time myself and usually find a reboot does the job. Downer having to cut and paste everything. I also suspect that we are closer to having the same opinion than we realise
I think there are many old courses that have cut in drainage, whether XGD or not, to their topsoil greens.
Jeff, many also had tiled drainage installed at construction

This is true.  In digging up hundreds of old greens, I see lots of different type of construction and ammendments.  But, long before USGA greens, builders seemed to realize they needed better soil and drainage in greens.

Most have topdressed to have some kind of sand base for the first several inches.
Most pushups are the local soil improved with sand mixed in. Although they may have been topdressed with sand (though the best is with the rootzone mixture) the rate of surface lift is so gradual that any pure sand topdresses get plenty of organic material added though the swards growth. There would not be a layer of sand as you seem to imply. One of the problems with USGA thought process is that their specs are really precious but are quickly compromised through topdressing

Well, I have seen it.  Two quarter inch topdressings per year over 100 years does add up!  And, think Pinehurst, where the greens themselves became domes because of topdressing.  It does happen.
You will see a sandier layer due to topdressing but this will have quite a lot of organic matter in it that naturally occurs through growth. In soil based pushups with enough micro-organisms this should be broken down and intergrated which is not the case in the sterile sand green. As I have mentioned previously it is better if you topdress with rootzone or that the topdressing material has some organic part.
To say that old topsoil greens have lasted 100 years without some help and change along the way is probably not quite accurate.  If they have, its likely that its because they are private clubs with low play and good water in the NE.

There are many example of old greens that are native soil based, seeing large numbers of player and being in good condition. Statements like the last are just lame Jeff.

Then name me some, please.  I recall discussions here about Oakmont being untouched, and Forrest R came in to say Jack Snyder had rebuilt the root zone back in 1962 (?)  I don't know of a course with topsoil greens that hasn't tried to add sand by core aerification, pulling plugs, dragging in sand, and adding topdressing.  But, I haven't seen every course in the world, obviously.  In short, I am very wary, based on what I have seen over 33 years, that many old greens are "untouched."

Pushup, soil based greens usually have sand added to the mix at construction and this is done to improve the growing qualities of it. Having said that, coring, topdressing etc, is not to do with improving the basic growing qualities but rather more repairing damage and wear caused by maintenance and traffic. If you are saying that to add sand by core aerification, pulling plugs, dragging in sand, and adding topdressing is to improve the rootzone then you have to say the same for sand based greens.

Courses still playing on their old, native soil based greens are course such as TOC, Strathpeffer GC, Ganton, Dewsbury District Golf Club to name just a few of the many hundred here in the UK some of which see considerable play

I believe sand based greens are more effective in most climates, although I agree that looking at each climate and micro climate to really tune the construction method is probably better than a one size fits all.

Trying to have it both ways.

What a BS statement by you.  No pat answers in the real world.  Study the situation, do what's best for the client considering climate and budget.  Not "trying to have it both ways" at all.  Just always trying to pick the best way for that situation.  Every time out.  

Jeff, I may have been a bit hard in my comment it just seemed to me you were saying one thing then edging your statement with a classic get out clause. I think 'Just always trying to pick the best way for that situation' is just perfect.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jon,

Well, LOL on your last statement.  Yes, I am conscious of getting bashed by non experts on this site, and consciously wrote a sort of non committal (and yet totally true) statement at the end to avoid some anticipated critiques, and then get critiqued for that!  Really, I figured saying that its a case by case basis would be fairly non confrontational!  But, it is true.

One thing architects in general dislike is that standardization of specs.  We figure we get paid to assess those on a case by case basis and figure it out.  I have seen two courses across the street from each other have different enough micro climates to make agronomic decions quite different.  Years ago, in Lynchburg, VA, for example, I29 was considered the dividing line between warm and cool season grasses.