[Patrick_Mucci]

recover from, in terms of getting the ball closer to the hole, a greenside bunker 5-6 feet below grade or a greenside bunker 3-4 feet above grade ?

Inherently, aren't greenside bunkers above grade more difficult due to the slope from the green to the front of the bunker ?

[Sam Morrow]

recover from, in terms of getting the ball closer to the hole, a greenside bunker 5-6 feet below grade or a greenside bunker 3-4 feet above grade ?

Inherently, aren't greenside bunkers above grade more difficult due to the slope from the green to the front of the bunker ?

Wouldn't it be more on a case by case basis?

[Mike McGuire]

I have not played a green side bunkers above grade that wasn't  lame.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'd think that above green grade would be more difficult. You lose the ability of the ball to self correct distance or trajectory errors. Seldom encounter them, I think that #7 at Pasatiempo was an example before reworking, but I could be wrong.

[Matt Kardash]

I've rarely ever hit out of bunkers 3 to 4 feet above the green surface. However, I have noticed that I find very shallow bunkers harder to get close to the pin then let's say a 5 foot deep bunker. I find when a bunker is very shallw (i.e. less than 2 feet deep) I tend to hit the ball fat for whatever reason. Out of very deep bunkers I tend to pull off the shot rather nicely. Maybe it's because I'm more concentrated because the shot seems more difficult? Maybe because I lower my standards for what is a good shot when the bunker is deep? Not sure, but there you have it.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Depends if you have short sided yourself or not

[Patrick_Mucci]

Depends if you have short sided yourself or not

Brett,

Even if you haven't short sided yourself, which is more difficult for you and why.

Matt,

My guess is tou're peeking on the shallow bunker, which you probably don't do from a deep bunker because there's nothing to peek at.

Mike,

The bunkers behind the 7 th, 13th and 16th at ANGC and the 10th at Sebonack are all above grade.
They're less common than deep bunkers.
Which ones did you find "lame" ?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Well I am assuming that the above grade bunker is not really deep, or more specifically, the lip between you and your target is not very high. If that is the case, then for me, as long as I have green to work with then I think that shot is less complicated - from a below grade bunker you have the same bunker stroke, but usually a steep face to tackle and so a high trajectory shot is  required making more complex.
The one advantage of a deeper below grade is you'd hope the ball would land softer?

[cary lichtenstein]

I remember above ground bunkers behind 17 at pebble beach and loved them. Too bad they are not used more often.

[Ben Sims]

recover from, in terms of getting the ball closer to the hole, a greenside bunker 5-6 feet below grade or a greenside bunker 3-4 feet above grade ?

Inherently, aren't greenside bunkers above grade more difficult due to the slope from the green to the front of the bunker ?

Patrick,

I would say that your last sentence in the bingo.  I can't think of a bunker where I've been above the green and the slope is towards the golfer.  So, yeah, the slope is the killer.

I'm reminded of the high right green side bunker on #9 at Crystal Downs.  Impossible up and down.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was also thinking of the high left side bunkers on #  16 at NGLA, and how extremely difficult that recovery would be without the punchbowl green.

Is there a fear that balls hit from bunkers above the green will be difficult to stop ?

[Jason Topp]

Above ground.  It looks different and you almost certainly are facing a downslope.

[Jason Thurman]

Above grade seems to work really well when there's further disaster lurking on the other side of the green. The shot from an above-grade bunker toward water is one of the scariest in golf, and most of the above-grade greenside bunkers I've played leave you hitting toward water or some other hazard.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are above grade bunkers more difficult to recover from because the green interupts the trajectory of the recovery at a lower point, enabling the ball to pick up more speed on shots of equal distances ?

[Bill Brightly]

As Jason said, with above grade bunkers you are probably facing a green that slopes away, and THAT is what makes the shot hard. All things being equal except for the bunker height, there is no difference is shot difficulty.

After judging the expected rollout, I just pick a spot where I want the ball to land and hit the same bunker shot, no matter how high or low the bunker is.

[Jason Thurman]

Are above grade bunkers more difficult to recover from because the green interupts the trajectory of the recovery at a lower point, enabling the ball to pick up more speed on shots of equal distances ?

From a physics standpoint, it should be the opposite. The fact that above-grade bunkers lead to a shot with its trajectory interrupted at a lower point should create a steeper landing angle, and thus make the ball easier to stop. There's a good section on the effect of landing angles in Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible.

However, if the above-grade bunker also gives a lie on a downslope, a lot of that factor is negated. I also think the golfer tends to feel more uncomfortable hitting a high-soft landing shot from a lie above the target. Perhaps that leads to a lower-flighted blast which also negates some of the steep landing angle they should theoretically gain from an above-grade bunker. Also, the effect of landing angle is much more pronounced on longer shots when the ball carries plenty of land-speed velocity upon landing. A short bunker shot is never moving so fast (with regards to land-speed) that it can't be controlled with well-imparted spin, even if the ball strikes the green at an extremely shallow angle.

[David Cronheim]

I have always found it much harder to hit a shot from an above-grade bunker. Dave Pelz may be right from a physics standpoint, but if the bunker is above the grade of the green, it means that it is downhill from the bunker to the green. In almost every case, that means you're hitting to a green that runs away from you, making the shot much harder. The opposite is generally true from bunkers below the level of the green unless the green is a punchbowl or has some punchbowl-like qualities.

[Jason Thurman]

Yep, that too. Assuming a totally flat green and a totally level bunker lie, it should be easier from the above-grade bunker. But that almost never is the case.

[Kalen Braley]

I think this is still a "it depends" kind of answer.

I don't care where the bunker is relative to the height of the green, give me the bunker shot where the ball is on the up-slope of the bunker as opposed to the down-slope.  And give it to me like that everytime....

Its really as simple as that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are above grade bunkers more difficult to recover from because the green interupts the trajectory of the recovery at a lower point, enabling the ball to pick up more speed on shots of equal distances ?

From a physics standpoint, it should be the opposite. The fact that above-grade bunkers lead to a shot with its trajectory interrupted at a lower point should create a steeper landing angle, and thus make the ball easier to stop. There's a good section on the effect of landing angles in Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible.

Yes, but you're forgetting about the rate of acceleration on a falling object, and rollout

However, if the above-grade bunker also gives a lie on a downslope, a lot of that factor is negated. I also think the golfer tends to feel more uncomfortable hitting a high-soft landing shot from a lie above the target. Perhaps that leads to a lower-flighted blast which also negates some of the steep landing angle they should theoretically gain from an above-grade bunker. Also, the effect of landing angle is much more pronounced on longer shots when the ball carries plenty of land-speed velocity upon landing. A short bunker shot is never moving so fast (with regards to land-speed) that it can't be controlled with well-imparted spin, even if the ball strikes the green at an extremely shallow angle.

Not many golfers are capable of hitting a short bunker shot with "well imparted spin".  In fact, no one I play with has that talent.
The less speed at impact, the lower the rpm's.

Let's also not forget an overwhelming factor, above grade bunkers tend to have the grade working against recovery.

I also think that there's a much greater tendency to peek on above grade bunker shots.
The fact that almost everything is visible to the golfers eye, subconsciously tempts him to peek, whereas, in a bunker 4-5 feet below grade, that tendency is almost always removed.

I feel far more comfortable in below grade bunkers.
Is that because of familiarity or the visual ?

[Jason Thurman]

Pat, you're right that golfers can't always get well-imparted spin. But from a good lie in the sand, it's much easier for most players to spin the ball a bit than from other lies around the green. Assuming a level lie and a level landing area, a bunker shot is pretty easy to stop within 10 feet or so of landing for anyone using remotely sound technique, including me.

But I think you're hitting the answer with the last part of your post. I'm much more comfortable hitting the correct shot (a high blast with a bit of spin) from a below-grade lie than from an above-grade one. It's almost like the bunker face on the former makes it easier to commit to the shot required, even though the shot should theoretically be easier from the above-grade bunker (I'm not forgetting anything. The acceleration of the falling object you mention is exactly what creates the vector that should make it easier to stop the above-grade bunker shot, hypothetically, though I agree that the result usually doesn't support that hypothesis).

And as you, David, and I have mentioned, the bigger factor is probably the slopes involved. Above grade bunkers tend to give downhill lies to a target that runs away from you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

What, visually and mentally, makes recovery from above grade bunkers more uncomfortable ?

Is it the rarity of the shot, the lack of familiarity and confidence.

I'd rather be in a 4-5 foot bunker than a bunker 2-3-5 feet above grade.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

Not sure if you missed my last post or not, but its where the ball is in the bunker aka the upslope or downslope that has more bearing than where the bunker is compared to the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Not sure if you missed my last post or not, but its where the ball is in the bunker aka the upslope or downslope that has more bearing than where the bunker is compared to the green.

Kalen,

I didn't miss it, and certainly one's lie in the bunker is a determining factor on their ability to recover, but downhill lies are probably more prevalent in above grade bunkers due to the general topography.

One can have a downhill lie in both bunkers.

I know one thing, on the left greenside bunker on the 1st hole at Mountain Ridge, the closest you can get to the hole, when the hole is cut on the left side of the green, is 20 feet, unless you hit the hole, due to the slope of the green and surrounds, and, that's a below grade bunker.

For whatever the reason, I always feel more prone to blade or blast an above grade bunker shot long.
I think there's also a greater propensity to peek and I think the grade, almost always leading from the green to the bunker, makes the recovery back down that slope, so much more difficult.

[Jason Thurman]

Pat, I think you probably have it right and it's probably for all the reasons you cited. It's an unfamiliar shot. It's also basically impossible to practice (I've never seen an elevated practice bunker). It always feels like a downhill lie, even if it isn't. And it's just uncomfortable trying to hit a high, soft shot to a target below you with no lip to flip the ball over.

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