[Alex Lagowitz]

Brad,

My only visit to Apawamis was for the wedding of the best looking girl in my college class and I wasn't the groom!

But, that aside, I agree with you the place looks quirky fun.
Have you ever played the course?  It plays worse than it looks.

I read Alex's comment several times and don't really get what he doesn't like.
Most of the tee shots are boring and irrelevant.  Just because it is quirky doesnt mean it is good.

You get the feeling he wouldn't like a North Berwick either.

Your feeling is clearly wrong.  I love North Berwick.  There is a reason North Berwick is known as a good course and there is a reason most people have not heard of Apawamis.  It photographs well, it looks cool, but honestly it doesn't play interesting at all.
I can go hole by hole like I did and explain.  What is interesting about hole 1?  If hitting into a hill is fun, I guess you would like hole 2.  Do you like straight drives with trees on both sides? I think holes 3, 6, 7, 12, and 16 are good.  The other holes are quirky, but not every quirky hole is good, and in this case that rings true.  I think many people are overlooking the true merits of this course as they are being over excited about the quirk factor. 

Wish I could play Apawamis.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I hate to burst everyone's bubble here but its not a good course at all.
I love golden age designs and have played here many times.
Hole 1 is not a good hole, hit a boring tee shot to a green that unfairly sloping towards the fairway.  You hit it short of the pin and put uphill. Done.
Hole 2 is a terribly boring tee shot and a severly uphill second.  Its a slog and not a fun hole.
Hole 3 is pretty cool, boring drive but a neat second. 
Hole 4 is a really boring tee shot to an "interesting" green.
Hole 5 is a nothing par 3.
Hole 6 seems like it would be cool, however since no one is tempted to hit anything more than a 4 iron, it becomes a chip and a putt. Decent hole.
Hole 7 looks absolutely sweet.  I would love this hole if the dogleg want so damn close to 90 degrees.  You have to really be precise and for a long hole like that its definitely asking a lot.
Hole 8 has incredible ground movement, although it doesn't play as well as it could.  If it were really firm, you could get a fun shot into the green, but I have yet to see it play like it should.
Hole 9 is a slog par 5 with a good approach for a 3-wood for those long enough.  Nothing interesting if you lay up.
Hole 10 is a little better for a par 5, having a split fairway.  What the pictures fail to reveal is an ugly lake that is about 100 yards from the green left of the fairway.  The green is nice.
Hole 11 has very little historical feeling to it, a flat green.
Hole 12 is an awesome par 3.  Great elevation change, pretty flat green although i can see with that distance being ok.

Will let the pictures be posted before I go on, but truth be told, it looks way better in pictures than it actually is.

The course looks great to me. Good variety and a bit of quirk thrown in for good measure.

I haven't played the course, but it looks like you'd want to place your tee shot on the 1st just left of centre. If you're a bit left or right, is the view of the green obscured? Having to keep the ball below the flag is an important part of the game at times. Leave it too short and you may have a long putt; try to leave it very close and below the hole and you might over hit it a couple of yards. Then you have a difficult putt. That's interesting to me.

I don't think a 345 yards hole could be described as a slog; 545 yards maybe, but not 345 yards. The tee shot appears to be to a fairway below tee level, so it's only the second shot that is uphill.

It looks like you have to place your tee shot on the 3rd, so you have to think about what club to use. I don't think that's boring. Automatically pulling the driver out of the bag is boring.

Any takers for the few holes? 

[Joe Bausch]

Let's continue this slog.   

#13.  "The Pond", par 4 (356 yards).



Tee view (those are some large exposed rocks just in front of the tees):



Approach shot view:



From the front edge of the green showing the winding creek:



Elevated view from over the green:



#14.  "Water Loo", a long par 4 (446 yards).



Tee view, a drive where you can let it rip:



For most a very long approach shot awaits:



A creek runs in a valley short of the green:



View from long a left of the green (this green has been moved at some point; it used to play as a par 5 to the nursery green you can see in the overhead earlier):



#15.  "Tribulation", a par 4 (412 yards).



Tee view:



Approach shot view:



From over the green:



Glad to see some discussion has heated up.  Alex, don't back down on your beliefs.

The last three tomorrow.

[JNC Lyon]

But honestly I still stand strong on my views of the course, regardless of what may or may not have happened

May or may not have happened?  So these weren't your scores?

http://www.ajga.org/microsites/pages/tournresults.asp?TN=201068&RD=3

To me, it seems like you are trashing the course simply because of a poor tournament performance.  At best, that's intellectually lazy.  It's certainly fair to have a less-than-glowing opinion of a golf course.  However, when several people whose opinion I trust rave about a golf course, and then you dismiss that view abruptly, I have believe there are strong negative emotions at play in your assessment here.  If we're having a serious discussion about golf architecture, that sort of criticism won't pass muster.  

For anyone else who is wondering about collegiate golfers and Apawamis, I have a friend who plays high level D-1 golf (dare I say higher level than Colgate) who loves Apawamis.

[Alex Lagowitz]

But honestly I still stand strong on my views of the course, regardless of what may or may not have happened

May or may not have happened?  So these weren't your scores?

http://www.ajga.org/microsites/pages/tournresults.asp?TN=201068&RD=3

To me, it seems like you are trashing the course simply because of a poor tournament performance.  At best, that's intellectually lazy.  It's certainly fair to have a less-than-glowing opinion of a golf course.  However, when several people whose opinion I trust rave about a golf course, and then you dismiss that view abruptly, I have believe there are strong negative emotions at play in your assessment here.  If we're having a serious discussion about golf architecture, that sort of criticism won't pass muster.  

For anyone else who is wondering about collegiate golfers and Apawamis, I have a friend who plays high level D-1 golf (dare I say higher level than Colgate) who loves Apawamis.

John,

Have you even played the course?
And again, just because I played bad (and by the way broke my foot earlier in the week later to be found out), doesn't mean I can't hold an honest opinion about a course, which you fail to respect.
People on this website highly overrate quirk in a golf course, which is leading to the overwhelmingly great responses to the pictures.  So maybe I am being a little harsh, but how about critiquing what I said about the course, rather than the merits of my conclusion.

"I have a friend who plays high level D-1 golf (dare I say higher level than Colgate)"
Congrats bud.

[Scott Warren]

Alex,

We were at Sand Hills this year the dates John refers to. This is an old tournament, yeah?

I like when a contrary opinion is constructively introduced into a thread like this. Hopefully you and Joe (and others who have played the course) can go back and forth where you disagree about the course and provide some "frank discussion".

[Tim_Weiman]

Alex,

I don't want to hijack the thread, but am glad to hear you are a North Berwick fan. So, we can't totally trash you!

But, seriously, I grew up in Westchester County and in a sense I agree with you: Apawamis was never at the top of anyone's list to play. But, that said, it is in what Tom Doak once called a "tough neighborhood" - an environment with lots of very good golf courses in the area.

Having never seen the course I can't really judge, but the deck of pictures presented here sure makes me want to play it. Sure, not all quirk is good, but with so little of it being created by modern designers, Apawamis looks pretty refreshing.

[JNC Lyon]

But honestly I still stand strong on my views of the course, regardless of what may or may not have happened

May or may not have happened?  So these weren't your scores?

http://www.ajga.org/microsites/pages/tournresults.asp?TN=201068&RD=3

To me, it seems like you are trashing the course simply because of a poor tournament performance.  At best, that's intellectually lazy.  It's certainly fair to have a less-than-glowing opinion of a golf course.  However, when several people whose opinion I trust rave about a golf course, and then you dismiss that view abruptly, I have believe there are strong negative emotions at play in your assessment here.  If we're having a serious discussion about golf architecture, that sort of criticism won't pass muster.  

For anyone else who is wondering about collegiate golfers and Apawamis, I have a friend who plays high level D-1 golf (dare I say higher level than Colgate) who loves Apawamis.

John,

Have you even played the course?
No.  I don't think I said that I had.  In fact, I never registered an opinion on the golf course.  I was merely opining on your method of critique.
And again, just because I played bad (and by the way broke my foot earlier in the week later to be found out),
An injury like that sucks.  But why is there a "QWD" next to your score?  I would pretty upset if the AJGA smeared me like that.
doesn't mean I can't hold an honest opinion about a course, which you fail to respect.
I believe that I wrote, "It's certainly fair to have a less-than-glowing opinion of a golf course."

People on this website highly overrate quirk in a golf course, which is leading to the overwhelmingly great responses to the pictures. 
Maybe so, but quirky courses tend to be underrated by the general golfing public.  I think it's fair to stake out a contrarian position so that others might come to appreciate what is otherwise unappreciated.

So maybe I am being a little harsh, but how about critiquing what I said about the course, rather than the merits of my conclusion.

"I have a friend who plays high level D-1 golf (dare I say higher level than Colgate)"
Congrats bud.
Thanks!  But you left out the last three words of my sentence.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Alex,

We were at Sand Hills this year the dates John refers to. This is an old tournament, yeah?

I like when a contrary opinion is constructively introduced into a thread like this. Hopefully you and Joe (and others who have played the course) can go back and forth where you disagree about the course and provide some "frank discussion".

Scott,

Yes, the tournament was in 2010.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Alex,

I don't want to hijack the thread, but am glad to hear you are a North Berwick fan. So, we can't totally trash you!

But, seriously, I grew up in Westchester County and in a sense I agree with you: Apawamis was never at the top of anyone's list to play. But, that said, it is in what Tom Doak once called a "tough neighborhood" - an environment with lots of very good golf courses in the area.

Having never seen the course I can't really judge, but the deck of pictures presented here sure makes me want to play it. Sure, not all quirk is good, but with so little of it being created by modern designers, Apawamis looks pretty refreshing.

I agree with what you're saying for sure.  I think quirk can be refreshing especially in this modern age of golf design.  I will say, however, that you would be disappointed playing the course after seeing the pictures.  Take for example the 8th hole.  The movement is absolutely phenomenal.  The pictures of this hole are fantastic.  It plays just over 300 yards if I remember (maybe a little more) so most will hit a fairway metal or iron leaving a blind shot into the green. 

Here is what the pictures don't show.  If you are straight down the fairway or if you blow it 40 yards right of the fairway, you effectively have the same shot in.  The only way to get a slightly better view is to hit it about 260 yards.  So after playing more than once and knowing this, you basically don't feel threatened on the tee by the fairway movement and the drive loses interest on what could be such a great hole.  Although I am not an architect, I feel this hole would be greatly improved with a central hazard.

The shot into the green is interesting, but what a shame that it plays WAY softer than it should.  Imagine hitting a shot than lands short and stays there!  I'm sure this hole plays miles better when the course plays F&F, but from my experience there (about 10 rounds over a 3 year stretch), I've never seen this course play as firm as it should/could.  What makes North Berwick so interesting is that the quirk is complemented by the firm and fast fairways.  The second hole at Berwick plays awesome with those fairway contours.  That same effect is lost at times at Apawamis.


Back to the thread,
I would say 13 is the worst hole on the course.  The drive is a little awkward, and I am not a fan of the lake in front of the green.  Wondering if this is original or not.  This is the same awkward lake that flanks the 10th fairway. 

Hole 14 is a nice hole, with a good sized green and some tough pins.  Not the quirkiest of holes out here, but a solid hole at that. 
Hole 15 is interesting.  At about 270 yards or so, the fairway begins down hill, and abruptly stops to turn into first cut.  The fairway begins again after about 50 yards.  I never really understood this maintenance practice, although it makes the hole play tougher.

 

[Joe Bausch]

Alex,

I don't want to hijack the thread, but am glad to hear you are a North Berwick fan. So, we can't totally trash you!

But, seriously, I grew up in Westchester County and in a sense I agree with you: Apawamis was never at the top of anyone's list to play. But, that said, it is in what Tom Doak once called a "tough neighborhood" - an environment with lots of very good golf courses in the area.

Having never seen the course I can't really judge, but the deck of pictures presented here sure makes me want to play it. Sure, not all quirk is good, but with so little of it being created by modern designers, Apawamis looks pretty refreshing.

Take for example the 8th hole.  The movement is absolutely phenomenal.  The pictures of this hole are fantastic.  It plays just over 300 yards if I remember (maybe a little more) so most will hit a fairway metal or iron leaving a blind shot into the green. 

Here is what the pictures don't show.  If you are straight down the fairway or if you blow it 40 yards right of the fairway, you effectively have the same shot in.  The only way to get a slightly better view is to hit it about 260 yards.  So after playing more than once and knowing this, you basically don't feel threatened on the tee by the fairway movement and the drive loses interest on what could be such a great hole.  Although I am not an architect, I feel this hole would be greatly improved with a central hazard.

The shot into the green is interesting, but what a shame that it plays WAY softer than it should.  Imagine hitting a shot than lands short and stays there!  I'm sure this hole plays miles better when the course plays F&F, but from my experience there (about 10 rounds over a 3 year stretch), I've never seen this course play as firm as it should/could.  What makes North Berwick so interesting is that the quirk is complemented by the firm and fast fairways.  The second hole at Berwick plays awesome with those fairway contours.  That same effect is lost at times at Apawamis.

Alex, I include hole diagrams so you don't have to guess yardages.   

I only have one play and you have many at Apawamis.  And my opinions of golf holes can change.

But your description of the 8th and how to play it don't fit my experience and playing partner (a member) very well.  First off, the hole plays about 360 yards.  The Alps landform runs diagonally, a bit higher and longer to carry left.  So your longer player will have an advantage on this hole, IMO, as they can carry a center to left-center drive way down the hill to leave a wedge or less in.  However, the right rough and three bunkers right will penalize a lazy drive.  A person that can only drive the ball say 240 max is not going to get a glimpse of any part of the flag unless they hit a drive in the far right part of the fw.  But in my opinion if a golfer tops at 240ish on their tee shots they should not be playing the blue tees at Apawamis!

[Joe Bausch]

While some good info/opinions are being exchanged, let finish up the photo tour:

#16. "Consolation", a slightly uphill par 3 (186 yards).



Tee view, where our caddy strongly emphasized to be happy being short of the green if anything:



That pot bunker looks like fun:



Shaved down area over the green which is really pitched back to front:



#17.  "Sleepy Hollow", a par 5 (501 yards).



Tee view, where that flag in the distance is NOT the pin (actual farther left and down in a hollow):



Going for the green on the 2nd or just laying up is a blind shot:



If you lay up to a real good distance to the end of the first fw, you can get a glimpse of the green:



Earlier in the round this is the view of the 17th green from the elevated 2nd tee:



#18.  "Jacques", a  par 4 (326 yards).



Blind tee shot:



Approach shot view:



From just over the green:



And the nifty front of the clubhouse:



If you would like to view all the photos in my album, go here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Apawamis/index.html

That's it and that's all.  I love the place.

Let the discussion continue (and in the spirit of the Emperor's words in the recent interview posted by Ran today)!

[Mike Sweeney]

I spoke with a former caddy from Apawamis today and he confirmed that there might be too much quirk for one course, and I think of him as a big fan of quirk.

That said, it is now #1 on the Westchester list to play.

Thanks as always Joe.

[Joe Bausch]

I just spoke to my friend at "Appo" to remind me they have just celebrated their 125th anniversary.  I thought this thread deserves a bump!

[MCirba]

Definitely on my "must play" list.  I walked large sections a decade or so back and it looked like compelling golf to me.

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