[John Kavanaugh]

On the same course from the same tees.  What architectural subtleties are revealed in a tournament that are missed playing recreationally?

[Jud_T]

The subtle inflection of the shaping on the back side of Rees' new fairway bunker that's a 305 carry and kicks your ball ever so gently left.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Probably not much you could actually see on a camera.  More like subtle green contours that deflect pretty good shots vs average ones, and make the actual target size much smaller than the green or fw itself.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm talking about when recreational golfers play a course they have played often playing the same course in a tournament.  I'm telling you, it's not the same course.

[Jud_T]

Actually an interesting question.  First thought is some of the pin placements that one might find on hard course day (super's revenge).  It's amazing how much different your home club can be set up.  Rough and particularly green speeds and pin placements can change things dramatically.

[Anthony Butler]

Actually an interesting question.  First thought is some of the pin placements that one might find on hard course day (super's revenge).  It's amazing how much different your home club can be set up.  Rough and particularly green speeds and pin placements can change things dramatically.

At least 3 edges on each green are pinnable even at 13 on the stimpmeter. Especially those directly next to bunkers.... those are changes you see most often on courses about to host a professional event.

[Sean Leary]

I find holes that have OOB are much more noticeable and worrysome in tournament stroke play...

[Nigel Islam]

The 3 and half hour round versus the 5 and a half hour round?

[JMEvensky]

On the same course from the same tees.  What architectural subtleties are revealed in a tournament that are missed playing recreationally?

Wouldn't tournament-type maintenance be responsible for a lot of the difference?

The local course which holds the PGAT tournament is night/day different the week of the tournament.The members don't get to play the fairways mowed as tightly nor as dried out and the greens are much firmer for the tournament.

Golf balls do different things on a course set up for the PGAT.

[JESII]

This really is a good question John, I hope it gets some traction.

First that popped to my mind was the subtle green slopes Jeff talked about. Next is those little 6 or 9 inch upslopes near the edge of a green that you have to deal with when approaching front pins or chipping from the sides of greens that are surrounded by fairway height grass.

[JESII]

Jeff,

Agreed! But wasn't that the question...what features really show up under tournament maintenance preparations?

[Howard Riefs]

I'm talking about when recreational golfers play a course they have played often playing the same course in a tournament.  I'm telling you, it's not the same course.

What intricacies did you catch when the Web.com tour visited Victoria National?

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes, I am talking about us playing in tournaments.  I admit I am a choker extraordinaire but I'm telling you that the architecture changes when playing in stroke play tournaments.  I shot seven strokes worse than average yesterday because I was seeing trouble I had not seen before.  The best I can tell my fear of being above the hole became so exaggerated that I never got the ball to the hole.

I came away with a new respect for the architecture of the course that I had not seen in recreational rounds.

For those who care it was Rolling Hills in Evansville, In.  A Ron Kern remodel.  Worse yet it was a two man best ball which should have alleviated my fears.  Ended up in a tie for fourth (last pay) with a fellow GCAer of EdWarding skills so all was not lost. 

[Ed Brzezowski]

This is a great question and should get some good responses.


 I was thinking a tournament  set up would revel complex greenside issues. Put the speed up 1.0 to 1.5 and you have brought in the chipping areas and surrounds unlike daily play. Of course three putting will rear its ugly head rapidly.

We just had our event and some hole locations resulted in some big numbers being shot. The super gave us some fair locations to shoot at and some generous areas to bailout for the less daring souls. Those trying to make birdies were faced with some challenges we don't normally see. Shots hit to normally safe locations were a bit dicey due to green speeds. shots to difficult locations were rewarded if well struck and if not par was a difficult number to obtain.  Huge rains the days before had the greenside rough on steroids.

Some fairways were mown differently, lower, around some water hazards, that made some tee shots very interesting. The normal roll was not there and it required some additional thought to get around.

All in all a nice look, good job Greg since I know you stalk this site.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

The thing that struck me most from watching the U.S. Amateur stroke play round at Common Ground was how firm the greens were.  They are never anywhere near that for recreational play ... even the best players' best iron shots would bounce three feet in the air and ten feet forward, before they had an opportunity to spin and check [and they couldn't do that, downwind].

It had some different effects than I expected.  For example, on our third hole the hole location was in a little swale in the green, just beyond a higher front tier.  I expected most of the players to play past the tier on the fly to avoid a bad kick, and hope for a little help from the backstop behind the green.  But, several players landed their ball on the top tier, and the first bounce carried it neatly over the downslope right next to the hole, where it stopped.  I had been worried that the hole location rewarded the guys who could get up close to the green in two, over the guys who hit two straight shots and a good wedge shot, but it played just the opposite ... the tier in the green affected the players who were hitting SHORT third shots much more than the players who were hitting full wedges in.

[David Davis]

John, I'd say the course is the same if conditions are the same. It's our approach to playing it under pressure, especially in a stroke play event that changes things. Some examples:

In recreational play it's easy to "go for it" all the time on risk reward holes or if you've missed the fairway into the deep rough while in a strokeplay event you most likely would be more careful and make sure to get it back in play.

The putting is always more difficult but that's also mental of course.

I struggled with this when I started playing a lot of tournaments so to make up for the extra pressure I felt and how it affected my game I changed my recreational golf habits to try and instill more psychological pressure all the time which seems to help. in The Netherlands you can do that by registering all your rounds, so once you do that, before the round it indicates that your hcp (as long as your hcp is above 4) will be affected by this round. On top of that we always play for something, there is something on the line.

When I travel there is not a need to do this unless the group wants to but at home every round is "under pressure"

I personally don't see this changing the architecture.

[Peter Pallotta]

JK - I'd imagine that the scoring expectations both on each hole and over the course of the round are magnified under tournament conditions, such that:

i) routing and flow -- the sequence of hard and easy holes (or of holes that appear hard and easy), and its affect on our psyches
ii) the variety of recovery options -- the different ways in which a golfer is tested around the greens, and where and when water comes into play, and its impact on our confidence levels
iii) the length of holes and hazards to be carried -- with adrenaline and fatigue, and its relationship to the risks/options we see and the choices we make

are all experienced differently in the context of tournament architecture vs recreational architecture.

Peter

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hazards in the driving zone you're forced to negotiate one way or another, either on the drive or on the second shot if you lay back.

Not necessarily a crossing hazard or in the middle of the DZ, it can pinch the fwy a little or even just line the fwy for 20yds or so laterally. If the hole bends in any way near / at the hazard, the challenge is magnified.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think the overwhelming portion of of the difference between playing a course in a tournament and playing it in a casual round is between the ears, rather than between the bunkers, so to speak. As John said, trouble you'd never think about becomes trouble in a tournament. Frankly, it's probably a product of over-thinking in a tournament. I've been guilty of the same many times. If you want to shoot a good score, keep score in your practice rounds.

[Jud_T]

For those of us who don't play a lot of medal tournament rounds, didn't play competitively growing up, and usually just play matches with friends, it's an entirely different mindset;  Playing strategically to avoid a big number as opposed to playing strategically to win a hole or a match.  Most guys who are used to having the worst possible outcome be a double or whatever your adjusted handicap max is are in for a rude awakening on some courses in tough conditions.  

[Jeff Shelman]

My recent club championship experience made me realize how much more I had to pay attention to where pins were and go backwards from there.

The pin locations were all fair, but very few in two days were in easy spots. Because of that, you had to put the ball on the correct part of the fairway to have an easier shot at the pin.

When there are more easy pins or pins that aren't quite as tucked, positioning off of the tee or on a layup isn't nearly as important. You could always hit for the middle and that wasn't that bad. With some of these pins, if you hit to the middle, you still had a bit of work left to putt twice and make par.

[Kalen Braley]

Gotta go with Tims take, which is mine as well.

Outside of a couple of pins that are tucked more than usual, the only difference is between the ears.  Hit the ball in the pond during a casual round?  Not a big deal.  Do it in a "tournament" round with money, pride, and trash-talking on the line, its whole different animal.

Just two weekends ago, I had a great 15 hole round in our end of year tournament at my club...I was 6 over par for those 15 holes, but unfortunately, I was 9 over par on the other 3 holes!  

But that didn't even get my guff.  Its the alleged "25 handicapper" that shot a 83, which was  bogus....

[Wade Whitehead]

Related to Tim's point is that tournament golf is played under the rules of stroke play, while most recreational golf isn't.  A course really shows its character when EVERY shot counts.

WW

[Jimbo]

How about the break on that 24" putt that you have to make since its a tournament, combined with the increased speed that already made you wuss it short.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm talking about when recreational golfers play a course they have played often playing the same course in a tournament.  I'm telling you, it's not the same course.

JakaB,

It's the same course !

What's different is the "mind set"

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