[Josh Tarble]

This weekend I had the chance to play a new course that I thoroughly enjoyed, one of the best I've played. However, I played absolutely abysmal. That got me thinking, how does your performance at a course (or even a specific hole) influence your opinion? Ideally, you'd be able to play multiple rounds to catch both good and bad performances but that sometimes isn't the case.  In addition, is it even more impressive if you enjoy the course while playing poorly vs playing well?

[Sam Morrow]

I think it's human nature to let your play cloud your judgement. Same goes by who I'm playing with, I've played wonderful courses with jerk offs and hated every minute but had a blast playing crappy courses with the right people. I'd be curious to hear what course this was.

[Tom_Doak]

This weekend I had the chance to play a new course that I thoroughly enjoyed, one of the best I've played. However, I played absolutely abysmal. That got me thinking, how does your performance at a course (or even a specific hole) influence your opinion? Ideally, you'd be able to play multiple rounds to catch both good and bad performances but that sometimes isn't the case.  In addition, is it even more impressive if you enjoy the course while playing poorly vs playing well?

Josh:

It is indeed more impressive if you can enjoy a course when you're playing badly ... but there are many golfers who simply cannot.  They fall into two classes:

a)  Those who are fixated on score.  If, when you ask someone about how they liked a course, and they tell you their score, you can usually just dismiss their opinion because that's all they care about.  Or,

b)  Those who can only see what they themselves are doing.  They try to be open-minded, but when they slice into the woods at the 3rd and take two to get out and then pitch onto the green, they fail to note any of the architectural merits of the golf hole as it's supposed to be played, so it's impossible for them to really like it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ed Seay, Palmer's long time design partner always said that he never asked a golfer if he liked a course, he just asked what he/she shot, which pretty much gave him the answer.

One advantage of being a gca geek is that you aren't necessarily out there for the score, and tend to enjoy a good course regardless of score.  I would imagine that such folks like us would really hate a bad course where we shot a bad score, though.

[Jason Topp]

It can be tough to separate the two although I have enough experience playing bad golf that I believe I am still able to appreciate a great course on an off day.

 What I find most difficult is to figure out how much I like a course when I play it from tees too long for me.  At that point, I don't experience the variety a course may provide from a shorter tee and instead am just trying to slug it far enough to get to the green.  I don't seem to have the same problem from tees shorter than I would otherwise play.

[Jason Thurman]

I try to separate my performance from the course as much as possible. Still, it's probably only natural to get a little clouded by how you perform.

One thing is for sure. I have a hard time evaluating specific holes on which I play poorly, mostly because there's a good chance that I spent some time "off the beaten path" and missed a lot of the hole's design as a result. It's hard to evaluate a hole when you're in the woods 40 yards from the fairway.

[Jud_T]

  I would imagine that such folks like us would really hate a bad course where we shot a bad score, though.

This is very true.  How often have you played a course out of social obligation that you were pretty sure was uninteresting architecturally, only to hack it up and come away extra miserable?  It's tough work being a GCA snob, but somebody's got to do it.

[Josh Tarble]

Jason,
That's probably a good point, I don't know that I could properly say if some of the holes "work" without playing it a couple times.  But maybe that's part of the design, they push you out of your comfort zone and bait you into hitting poor shots.

Sam,
the course was the Donald Ross Course at French Lick.  I had pretty high expectations going in, because I had read such good things.  And the course was just fantastic.  I've never played a course that was so perfectly laid out on the land.  The green complexes were fantastic...that's probably why I loved it.  I couldn't hit a fairway or make a putt to save my life, but getting up near the greens presented great challenges and nearly every single one was totally different.  I have a feeling that if French Lick wasn't in the middle of nowhere this course would be regarded much higher.

As for playing on a bad course, I think that makes the score more important.  If I know I'm not going to be playing on a course with a lot of interest, the main thing I'm going for is to shoot a good score. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jud,

Of course, there are times I have played an architecturally average course for social reasons and still loved the day because of the company, too.  Even if I play fairly badly.

About the only time I really start hating golf is when I know exactly what I am doing wrong, but cannot overcome my muscle memory that seems ingrained in doing it wrong.

[Peter Pallotta]

Josh - I come back to a belief I've shared before, which is that most average golfers actually know and appreciate architecture more than they realize, and certainly more than they are able to articulate, especially in a short sound bite. I also find few average golfers who directly equate what they shot with how much they like the course; indeed, if they are able to limit their extra strokes to about 5-10 more than their usual score/handicap, I find that most are intrigued by/find appealing that course's challenges. In short, most average golfers I play with (and I'm one too) tend to blame themselves/their skill level instead of the course. The only exception, the one thing I have found that average golfers almost unanimously dislike are a set of perched-up greens, difficult to land on and hold with long irons and limiting to their recovering options.

Peter

[Jim Sherma]

... The only exception, the one thing I have found that average golfers almost unanimously dislike are a set of perched-up greens, difficult to land on and hold with long irons and limiting to their recovering options.

I would confirm this based on one of our courses at Hershey. The East course is a George Fazio course with 16 of the 18 greens either plateaued around the surroundings or approached uphill to a green benched into a hill while having the green surface blind (in fact 11 of the greens surfaces are either mostly or completely blind although all of the pins are visible). While I personally really like the course and the challenge it presents it is obvious that it is not loved by the bulk of the membership. Raised greens that require aerial approaches, preferably from the correct angle (otherwise even well struck shots will not stay on the greens), is just too much golf course for many players. There is no way to tack around the difficulty, and even reasonably good players don't enjoy "good" shots not staying on the greens. Add in a day of uphill pitches to shelfs surrounded by fall-offs and bunkers made to play even more deep because of the perched nature of the greens. It is fun taking guys to the back tees and seeing them fall apart around the 12th or 13th hole as they realize they have no answers for the questions the course is asking them.

[Josh Tarble]

Peter,
That's a great point and in most cases I would say that is true.  I'd say the one thing most average golfers do not like are what they perceive as "unfair" holes...which could be a many number of things including what yourself and Jim mentioned.

Based on your statement though, why do most average golfers equate difficulty with good design?  Do you think if most golfers blame themselves normally, then if the course is difficult they can place blame elsewhere?

[Tom_Doak]

Josh - I come back to a belief I've shared before, which is that most average golfers actually know and appreciate architecture more than they realize, and certainly more than they are able to articulate, especially in a short sound bite.

Peter

Peter:

I think you are right about that, and I believe it was responsible for the success of The Confidential Guide.  I was writing reviews that people couldn't articulate themselves, but which struck them as what they wanted to say, too. 

If I'd tried to explain "architecture" to them, it wouldn't have worked.

[David Davis]

Josh,

I'm wondering how many posts I need to make before I officially become a GCA snob. Or is that years of play perhaps? Maybe I've not yet played enough years to appreciate at the right level.

The simple fact is, I have a good time every single time I get to have my golf clubs in my hands. Whether that's in my living room, at the local driving range 10 minutes from my house hitting balls off rubber mats in the rain or wading through the mud on polder courses moving the ball to that one dry spot where I can still swing when it's 40 degrees (f) outside and pissing down. No I don't love the courses or the conditions necessarily and it's true I don't have to do that anymore because I'm a member at a real club but I never complained about doing it for years.

It's hard to have performance issues when conditions and courses are so bad that expectations can not come into play. I guess that's how I learned so at the end of the day the performance is irrelevant even for a perfectionist like me.

I guess there's not much to complain about on a golf course but in the end sure I too choose the best i can and try to be critical when that's an option but I try my best every time I put the clubs in my hand at least to enjoy the walk, maybe one day the performance will also present itself. In the mean time as a single hcp I've hacked up some of the best courses in the world. Worst ever being TOC and under the most embarrassing of circumstances that the three well respected R&A members I was with certainly felt bad for me and offered to help me drink away my sorrows. However, I didn't have any sorrows and had an absolutely brilliant time once I let go of my ego.

It sounds to me that if you had a great time you did everything right!

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