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Keith OHalloran

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Too Firm?
« on: September 12, 2012, 09:41:28 PM »
Firm and Fast conditions get a lot of love on this site, but have you ever played a course that was too firm? Friends of mine played Timber Point over the weekend. I am sure most know the story of Timber Point, but it is a public course on the water on Long Island. My friend said he hit several 7 irons that landed short of the green and bounced 15 feet in the air and landed past the green without ever touching it. He also said the course looked good i.e. it wasnt just a dead parking lot. Should he have adjusted? Was this too firm?

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 09:49:12 PM »
That sounds like an exaggeration. "Several" iron shots that landed short of the green and bounced over on the first bounce? Multiple 30+ yard bounces on iron shots?

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 09:56:06 PM »
Matt,
I wanted to spare a lengthy post, but I heard this from 2 different groups that represent disparate abilities and do not know each other. One guy I know has played the course for 30 years, is a 12 based on his short game, and said he had 9 iron into the par 5 18th which is the shortest club he has ever hit in. He is now 62 years old.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 09:57:00 PM »
I played Yeamans Hall when a freak frost snuffed the rye and left us dormant bermuda on which to putt on Raynor greens.

Gruesome
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

John Ezekowitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 10:21:41 PM »
My high school (Lawrenceville) has a nine hole course on campus. Up until a couple of years ago, the course had no sprinkler system installed and was rarely watered. It really was golf in its most natural state.

I remember playing during the spring season one year when we didn't get any rain for three weeks. It was almost impossible to stop the ball on any of the greens with a full shot. Shots around the green would hold, but even wedges with spin would take huge hops forward. It was like playing to a tarmac. It made for a pretty fun home course advantage in matches.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 10:24:35 PM »
Touche John

Ya play the hand yur dealt . Maybe its different but its still golf
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 10:47:06 PM »
Touche John

Ya play the hand yur dealt . Maybe its different but its still golf

exactly...if golfers could just get away from thinking how everything should be just perfect for them every time and get back to golfing their ball, then they may happen to enjoy themselves more...
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 11:33:59 PM »
Firm and Fast conditions get a lot of love on this site, but have you ever played a course that was too firm? Friends of mine played Timber Point over the weekend. I am sure most know the story of Timber Point, but it is a public course on the water on Long Island. My friend said he hit several 7 irons that landed short of the green and bounced 15 feet in the air and landed past the green without ever touching it. He also said the course looked good i.e. it wasnt just a dead parking lot. Should he have adjusted? Was this too firm?

How many is several?
and after "several" shouldn't you hit less club?
It looked "quite good" so hit less club until you get the desired results----then repeat

It rained tues,wed last week and more on Sat (with tornadoes) How'd it get so firm?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 02:53:32 AM »
Rye gets too fast and firm in the height of a dry summer. There's a reason they play the President's Putter in January.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 02:55:19 AM »
When Dark Horse was ~ 1 year old, I recall a pulled approach landing in the rough just past the left/front greenside trap. My ball bounced 3 or 4 times before bounding over a fence into native grasses, never to be seen again. 2 years later, the coruse was so waterlogged after a rainstorm, the fairway turf was actually bubbling up (2-3 yards in diameter)  on several holes. I preffered too firm over too wet.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 03:04:05 AM »
If a course is kept properly in tune with the weather of course it can get too firm.  I happen to like the wide disparity of conditions when a course is dependant on weather.  I can think of few worse things to do with a course than plan to present it in the same condition everyday.  Thats unnecessarily expensive and ultimately less rewarding for the golfer.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 03:48:47 AM »
My former home course is set in a natural preserve and thus they are not allowed to water. The greens are very small, as it makes no sense to make them larger, since they do not hold anyway. You have to bounce the ball towards the flag and basically all you need then is a ten yard circle to putt from. It's a fun course, too.

However, I would not call it firm or "too firm", it is simply rock hard. Loamy soil bakes out without irrigation. In my mind sand-based soil is an integral part of "firm and fast" and that means a course can rarely be "too firm".

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 07:53:18 AM »
There are few greater joys than figuring out severe thumpness. Throw in the wind and you have golf. Not this watered down ego stroking game the 99% play.

 8 irons from 200 yards that go their normal 135 in the air and 65 on the ground, is a priceless calculation. Figure it out.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 07:55:43 AM »
Jeff,
Both groups played over the holiday weekend, which was a week before the tornado. One group has plays there every Sunday and could not believe how firm it was. I have heard that the county has basically pulled all money from the budget for the course and all they are doing is hand watering greens. I could be wrong about that, but it is what I heard.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 08:05:31 AM »
There are few greater joys than figuring out severe thumpness. Throw in the wind and you have golf. Not this watered down ego stroking game the 99% play.

 8 irons from 200 yards that go their normal 135 in the air and 65 on the ground, is a priceless calculation. Figure it out.


Well put.  Need to adjust when the course is playing extra firm.  One of the many great things about the game.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2012, 08:17:35 AM »
There are few greater joys than figuring out severe thumpness. Throw in the wind and you have golf. Not this watered down ego stroking game the 99% play.

 8 irons from 200 yards that go their normal 135 in the air and 65 on the ground, is a priceless calculation. Figure it out.

Well said, Adam! I remember my first round at Wild Horse, trying to figure out how far short of the green the ball needed to be landed in order to have it eventually stop on the green. The conditions that day were at that time the fastest I'd ever experienced, and it was the most fun I'd ever had. We kept commenting on whether the locals really appreciated what a special place they had at their disposal!

This thread reminds me of the course I grew up playing. We didn't understand as teenagers that greens not holding actually made it more FUN! We'd get mad when the ball would land on the green, bounce 10 feet in the air, and go over the back. Stupid teenagers  ::)

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 09:16:05 AM »
Sorry, but there is a "too firm." Links courses are designed with firm playing conditions in mind. Many US courses are not. When they get baked out, there's no calculating a 65 yard run on your 135 yard 8-iron because there's often a bunker, rough or a pond in front. That said, too firm occurs less than people might complain about. My measure of whether a course is too firm is whether a perfectly struck full shot with a short to mid iron CANNOT hold a green because it will not accept any spin. If I hit an 8-iron into the center of a green from the fairway and it releases over the back, then the course is too firm.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 09:21:06 AM »
Sorry, but there is a "too firm." Links courses are designed with firm playing conditions in mind. Many US courses are not. When they get baked out, there's no calculating a 65 yard run on your 135 yard 8-iron because there's often a bunker, rough or a pond in front. That said, too firm occurs less than people might complain about. My measure of whether a course is too firm is whether a perfectly struck full shot with a short to mid iron CANNOT hold a green because it will not accept any spin. If I hit an 8-iron into the center of a green from the fairway and it releases over the back, then the course is too firm.

David - you beat me to it. I love firm turf but there can be too firm conditions given the architecture. Courses that were designed for the air game can only be made so firm before you run out of options. If there is no "angle of attack into an upslope with reasonably expected spin" combination that will hold a green that has no run up option then it is too firm in my opinion.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 09:22:46 AM »
Sorry, but there is a "too firm." Links courses are designed with firm playing conditions in mind. Many US courses are not. When they get baked out, there's no calculating a 65 yard run on your 135 yard 8-iron because there's often a bunker, rough or a pond in front. That said, too firm occurs less than people might complain about. My measure of whether a course is too firm is whether a perfectly struck full shot with a short to mid iron CANNOT hold a green because it will not accept any spin. If I hit an 8-iron into the center of a green from the fairway and it releases over the back, then the course is too firm.
If I hit the CENTRE of an average sized green with an 8I, it isn't really firm at all if that ball stays on the green.  Your definition of too firm is only acceptable for a certain type of golf and that isn't my favourite type of golf.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 09:29:17 AM »
Sorry, but there is a "too firm." Links courses are designed with firm playing conditions in mind. Many US courses are not. When they get baked out, there's no calculating a 65 yard run on your 135 yard 8-iron because there's often a bunker, rough or a pond in front. That said, too firm occurs less than people might complain about. My measure of whether a course is too firm is whether a perfectly struck full shot with a short to mid iron CANNOT hold a green because it will not accept any spin. If I hit an 8-iron into the center of a green from the fairway and it releases over the back, then the course is too firm.
If I hit the CENTRE of an average sized green with an 8I, it isn't really firm at all if that ball stays on the green.  Your definition of too firm is only acceptable for a certain type of golf and that isn't my favourite type of golf.

Perhaps I'm a bit of an anomaly in that I hit the ball high and with a lot of spin, but I've played plenty of links golf and even in those fast and firm conditions, an 8-iron stays on the green. But don't take my word for it, watch the British Open and show me where a pro on an average shot can't hold the green with a fairway 8-iron. Same goes for fast and firm US Open golf courses. The challenge is if you're in the rough, not in the fairway.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 09:36:28 AM »
Bob Jones said something to the effect that one of the shortcomings of American greens is that they didn't feel "crusty" under foot as links greens did in the UK back in the day.

I'd guess that Jones would have thought a green that held a well struck 8i needed, ideally, to be firmer.

Personally, I've never played a course that was too firm.

Bob

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 09:56:54 AM »
David,

Remember Tom Watson hitting the centre of the 18th green at Turnberry with a well struck 8I in the 4th round of the Open?  We all know where that ball finished.  Now Watson strikes the ball as well as most pros and that shot didn't hold the green and those greens weren't particularly firm by links standards.  If you're a better ball striker than Watson, great.  A well struck 8I pitching in the front parft of a green should hold but not one pitching in the centre.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 10:02:26 AM »
David,

Remember Tom Watson hitting the centre of the 18th green at Turnberry with a well struck 8I in the 4th round of the Open?  We all know where that ball finished.  Now Watson strikes the ball as well as most pros and that shot didn't hold the green and those greens weren't particularly firm by links standards.  If you're a better ball striker than Watson, great.  A well struck 8I pitching in the front parft of a green should hold but not one pitching in the centre.

Remember that Watson's shot going over the green was seen as a anomalous outcome which landed on a firm/downslope patch. I believe the expectation was that it would have and should have held on the green given the conditions that the course was playing.

Brent Hutto

Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2012, 10:28:05 AM »
Firm and Fast conditions get a lot of love on this site, but have you ever played a course that was too firm? Friends of mine played Timber Point over the weekend. I am sure most know the story of Timber Point, but it is a public course on the water on Long Island. My friend said he hit several 7 irons that landed short of the green and bounced 15 feet in the air and landed past the green without ever touching it. He also said the course looked good i.e. it wasnt just a dead parking lot. Should he have adjusted? Was this too firm?

I made one of my semi-annual trips to the UK last week and Ganton GC in Yorkshire was playing at least that firm. Notts GC Hollinwell was maybe a notch less bouncy but still nearly comparable to what your friend is describing. Without being too cute about it, I've got to say playing in that kind of conditions is a major reason I endure a day of airline misery each way and spend several thousand dollars making those trips.

That said, it depends greatly on whether the course and especially the green surroundings are laid out in a way that makes firm playing surfaces fun. You can certainly design a course in which the only practical way to approach the greens is by landing a ball all the way onto the green and then stopping it there. To build that type of course then firm it up severely takes all the fun out of the experience.

There was one hole at Ganton that played with slight variations on the theme of "straight downwind approach" all six times I played it (over three days). Sometimes the wind was quartering slightly from the left and sometimes slightly from the right but basically downwind anywhere from a 8mph-12mph breeze (except one windy round of 18 gusting 20+). A 5-iron approach from just inside 200 yards would land 20-30 yards short of the front of the green and bounce 6-8 feet high, either landing on the green (if aimed well) or in the greenside rough on the third or fourth hop. If it hit the green it would roll off the back every time. One time I was hitting my third shot (Par 4) from a "flyer" lie in the rough. I choked down on an 8-iron which is my 125 yard club even though I was 165 yards from the front edge of the green. The ball ended up 10 yards beyond the green and 3 yards into the rough.

I thought playing in breezy conditions with that kind of firmness was pure fun. On another hole I perfectly executed a shot from nearly 200 yards out with a 4-hybrid that had to land 15 yards right of the line to the flag and 20 yards short of the green in order to end up hole high on the far left fringe. I can't ever, ever play a shot like that at my home course. It's more fun than any possible shot involving hitting the ball as close as I can to the hole and stopping it two feet from its ball mark, in other words the shot I play a hundred times a month at my home course.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Too Firm?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2012, 10:38:19 AM »
David,

Remember Tom Watson hitting the centre of the 18th green at Turnberry with a well struck 8I in the 4th round of the Open?  We all know where that ball finished.  Now Watson strikes the ball as well as most pros and that shot didn't hold the green and those greens weren't particularly firm by links standards.  If you're a better ball striker than Watson, great.  A well struck 8I pitching in the front parft of a green should hold but not one pitching in the centre.

Remember that Watson's shot going over the green was seen as a anomalous outcome which landed on a firm/downslope patch. I believe the expectation was that it would have and should have held on the green given the conditions that the course was playing.
Not what most commentators thought, at least over here.  That view (which I think Watson has endorsed) was that a 9I was a better club choice.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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