Ron-
Are you sure Burce Hepner restored the greens? I was always under the impression that every green at CC of Troy is to this day an original and untouched Travis green and that Hepner only did a bunker restoration, but I could be wrong!
I have played Troy many times and for the most part have enjoyed playing there but it is a very polarizing course in that area and I believe it to be one of those courses where you need to appreciate and have an interest in golf course architecture to really appreciate what is there.
JP,
WHY is it polarizing ?
Is it the severity of the greens ?
Stan,
I've heard that CC of Scranton and St George's also have unique/pronounced greens.
I haven't played that many purely Travis courses, but would you say that unique/pronounced greens are one of his trademarks ?
What other Travis courses have similar greens ?
Over the years I have heard many people say it's "too hilly, too many blind shots and those greens are crazy."
How much of that do you think is attributable to speed (12 on Stimp? )
You know the type
John B.
Pat,
I'll take a stab at some of those (hope JB doesn't mind) .I suspected that the course might turn off some people and asked my local partners about its reputation in the area. While the people who signed up for the event were generally fans, they confirmed the "too crazy for some" reputation that JB mentioned. The reasons could be:
Greens - Yes, they are severe for some. Not in a "ridiculously fast" way, but in a visually jarring way. The internal contours are bold on many holes, creating little elevated plateaus or basins throughout. Many average golfers assume that when they hit a green, the two-putt should be routine. It is anything but at CCT. I saw several 4 putts in our group, and even a 5 putt, but they really weren't "unfair." Rather, a sloppily played approach putt can be punished severely by falling off onto another tier or even off the green. They demand your attention and respect, but not just on putts.
CCT is fairly short, so you often have "easy-looking" approaches. But Travis demands you be precise with that short iron and hit to the right segment, because the threat of three-putt always looms. If you happen to just miss the green, it is not a routine thing. Again, many golfers are used to missing a green by a few feet and having a simple chip from the ring of "safety rough" just off the surface. But will short grass fall-offs and some big shoulders, you will need a variety of shots. Ultimately, I think it just upsets the expectation of how a green "should" play for some who visit.
For me, the greens weren't thrilling just because of the bold slopes. Once you get on the correct tier, I was surprised by the subtle breaks, often in counter-intuitive directions. I'm not sure if it was a Travis design feature or just something that happens on severe topography, but I missed a number of putts on my intended line and every member of the group would say "how does that no go left/right?" I noticed this same feature at Lookout Point (another Travis on similar topography), but we were often saved by Ian Andrew's warnings of the counter-intuitive break.
Severe Elevation Change - I don't mean rising and falling. Some of the changes are precipitous, which gets me going. It may just be too much for some. Contributing to that are the uneven lies that result, sometimes when you hit it "down the middle." in some cases, the best lies were to one side only, and you had to plan to avoid a ball 5-6 inches above or below your feet.
Blind Shots - Polarizing even among fans of GCA, the visual discomfort is again a bit much for some. It's not as much as a course like Tobacco Road, but there are plenty of instances where you're aiming at an estimated spot on a distant tree.
In combination, I think those elements really upset some players, especially when they have a preset expectation of what golf "should" look like. For me, those features ensure you will never be bored on a classic course is very short by modern day standards.
As for this being a Travis trait, I would say that the bold internal contours and spines are similar among the limited number of Travis courses I have played. Prior to this year, my only Travis exposure was Orchard Park CC in WNY, and it is apparent to me that those greens must have been neutered over the years. I played 4 more this year, and now understand what people mean by "Travis greens." I definitely want to see more examples.