News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CC of Troy (Travis)~Holes 1-18 photos posted~Commentary thru hole 12
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2012, 07:37:33 AM »
I failed to answer the question on why little notoriety. My answer would be thus: Travis courses rarely get professional event exposure. Westchester CC did for a time, but its greens (having never played them, so it's a guess) are not typical Travis greens. Travis courses typically tip out at 6600 to 6800 yards...very manageable for players of all mileage levels. Travis forces you to turn your attention to every shot into, around and on the putting surfaces.

I've not played any of his courses in the metro NYC area. From my area east, here's a list of unforgettable traces:

Lookout Point (Fonthill, Ontario, Canada)
Cherry Hill (Ridgeway, Ontario, Canada)
Stafford (Batavia, New York, USA)
Yahnundasis (Rome, New York, USA) **haven't played it
CCTroy (Troy, New York, USA)
CCScranton (Scranton, Pennsylvania, USA) **haven't played it
Cape Arundel (Kennebunkport, Maine, USA) **haven't played it

Link to society website: http://travissociety.com/

Travis, after his death, was fortunate to have the late Bob Labbance tell his story.

Link to Abe Books listing for this book~a bargain in my estimation: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=bob+labbance&kn=walter+travis&sts=t
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CC of Troy (Travis)~Holes 1-18 photos posted~Commentary thru hole 12
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2012, 11:00:05 AM »
Hole 13...

At first glance, this one looks like a breather. My advice is, take another three glances! Play your tee ball up the right side. Left side brings tree and sand trouble (unless you like shade followed by beach.) The reason you need good placement is, you want your ball as close to the hole as possible when you reach the green. It is a Travis classic. You could spend hours chipping, pitching and putting to hole locations here and come away a Paul Runyan of the 21st Century. Don't believe me? Don't trust my word? Ask Tim Martin.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CC of Troy (Travis)~Holes 1-18 photos posted~Commentary thru hole 12
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 11:45:45 AM »
Hole #14...

A blind tee shot to a wide fairway. Except, the fairway dives downward up the left side, leaving a unique approach in to the green. As with the previous hole, high side right is appropriate for the tee ball. This hole has two distinct tee decks, one from the right and one from the left. The green is magical, perhaps no more so than the other Travis concoctions on this layout, but magical nonetheless.

If one were to separate any of 15 of the CCTroy greens and plop it down on another GCA course, folks would marvel and ask about it.

This hole, like its predecessor, doglegs to the left.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CC of Troy (Travis)~Holes 1-18 photos posted~Commentary thru hole 14
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2012, 10:36:57 PM »
Hole #15...

Tim laughed when I tried to drive from 14 green to 16 tee...he said "hold on, cowboy, didn't we miss a hole?" 15 sits between 14 and 16, parallel to both. It's a 150-yard, straight-uphill one shot hole. The green should be beyond severe, as it sits on a little plateau above the tee. Travis took mercy and made it almost severe. Throw your shot up, past the front bunkers, onto the green, then run up and see how close you are!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CC of Troy (Travis)~Holes 1-18 photos posted~Commentary thru hole 14
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2012, 07:27:38 AM »
Just had the chance to play this one yesterday. Ron & Tim raved about their day there last month, so I immediately signed up for a NYSGA State Days event and drove the 4.5 hrs from Buffalo to play.  I avoided looking at this thread until I played, because I love the surprise factor of seeing a course for the first time.  Now that I'm done, I will probably keep this thread alive for awhile.


Simply stated, this is a spectacular course which exceeded expectations.  For the first time in my life, I walked off the last hole and proceeded immediately to the pro shop to ask about out-of-town membership rates.  These greens were stunning with even better tie-ins to the adjacent short-grass areas.  Perhaps even more stunning was the fact that they survived 85 years without at least one committee chairman demanding the 9th green be flattened because he just 4-putted for the 3rd time that year. 

I was in full GCA-Geek mode yesterday, enthralled by repeated challenges created without greens ringed by thick rough and bunkers.  There was bold terrain with dramatic elevation changes and areas with severe uneven lies, all of which appeal to me.  On top of all that, the course was playable, with few "in course OB" areas.  Yes, I had a 4 putt and a few 3 putts, but who the hell cares when it's done so well?



Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CC of Troy (Travis)~Holes 1-18 photos posted~Commentary thru hole 12
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2012, 07:28:46 AM »
Zowie, biggest surprise tour of the year to date.  This course looks outstanding.  How come I haven't heard tons about it?  New Yorkers are usually brash - what gives? 

One question about the 4th.  Why isn't the green extended out to include the large collar?  I wondered this too about Woking's 6th.  I don't understand why it wouldn't be a boon to have a larger green when water has to be covered - more hole locations available.


Ciao

I looked at the historic aerials and the earliest image (1952) had that right area as fairway.  Somewhere between 1952 and 2000, someone decided to litter the area with four small bunkers (I suppose clearing the hazard and leaving a little pitch from the right was deemed too easy).  Luckily, the area has been restored without the nuisance hazards.

Really, the green is pretty large already - I think it appears shallower than it really is in the picture you've shown.  if you look at the image from behind, you'll see there is plenty of depth. The area you see isn't really to the right of the green - it's quite a bit short.  I think it was meant to give you an "alternate layup" zone if you needed to approach from as far right as possible.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Country Club of Troy (Brunswick, NY~~Holes 1-9 Posted) Complete Photo Tour
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2012, 08:24:49 AM »
Ron-

Are you sure Burce Hepner restored the greens? I was always under the impression that every green at CC of Troy is to this day an original  and untouched Travis green and that Hepner only did a bunker restoration, but I could be wrong!

I have played Troy many times and for the most part have enjoyed playing there but it is a very polarizing course in that area and I believe it to be one of those courses where you need to appreciate and have an interest in golf course architecture to really appreciate what is there.


JP,

WHY is it polarizing ?

Is it the severity of the greens ?

Stan,

I've heard that CC of Scranton and St George's also have unique/pronounced greens.

I haven't played that many purely Travis courses, but would you say that unique/pronounced greens are one of his trademarks ?

What other Travis courses have similar greens ?


Over the years I have heard many people say it's "too hilly, too many blind shots and those greens are crazy." 

How much of that do you think is attributable to speed (12 on Stimp? )


You know the type ;)

John B.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Country Club of Troy (Brunswick, NY~~Holes 1-9 Posted) Complete Photo Tour
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2012, 07:48:16 AM »
Ron-

Are you sure Burce Hepner restored the greens? I was always under the impression that every green at CC of Troy is to this day an original  and untouched Travis green and that Hepner only did a bunker restoration, but I could be wrong!

I have played Troy many times and for the most part have enjoyed playing there but it is a very polarizing course in that area and I believe it to be one of those courses where you need to appreciate and have an interest in golf course architecture to really appreciate what is there.


JP,

WHY is it polarizing ?

Is it the severity of the greens ?

Stan,

I've heard that CC of Scranton and St George's also have unique/pronounced greens.

I haven't played that many purely Travis courses, but would you say that unique/pronounced greens are one of his trademarks ?

What other Travis courses have similar greens ?


Over the years I have heard many people say it's "too hilly, too many blind shots and those greens are crazy." 

How much of that do you think is attributable to speed (12 on Stimp? )


You know the type ;)

John B.
Pat,

I'll take a stab at some of those (hope JB doesn't mind) .I suspected that the course might turn off some people and asked my local partners about its reputation in the area. While the people who signed up for the event were generally fans, they confirmed the "too crazy for some" reputation that JB mentioned.  The reasons could be:

Greens - Yes, they are severe for some. Not in a "ridiculously fast" way, but in a visually jarring way.  The internal contours are bold on many holes, creating little elevated plateaus or basins throughout. Many average golfers assume that when they hit a green, the two-putt should be routine. It is anything but at CCT.  I saw several 4 putts in our group, and even a 5 putt, but they really weren't "unfair."  Rather, a sloppily played approach putt can be punished severely by falling off onto another tier or even off the green.  They demand your attention and respect, but not just on putts. 
CCT is fairly short, so you often have "easy-looking" approaches. But Travis demands you be precise with that short iron and hit to the right segment, because the threat of three-putt always looms.  If you happen to just miss the green, it is not a routine thing.  Again, many golfers are used to missing a green by a few feet and having a simple chip from the ring of "safety rough" just off the surface.  But will short grass fall-offs and some big shoulders, you will need a variety of shots.  Ultimately, I think it just upsets the expectation of how a green "should" play for some who visit.

For me, the greens weren't thrilling just because of the bold slopes. Once you get on the correct tier, I was surprised by the subtle breaks, often in counter-intuitive directions.  I'm not sure if it was a Travis design feature or just something that happens on severe topography, but I missed a number of putts on my intended line and every member of the group would say "how does that no go left/right?" I noticed this same feature at Lookout Point (another Travis on similar topography), but we were often saved by Ian Andrew's warnings of the counter-intuitive break.

Severe Elevation Change - I don't mean rising and falling. Some of the changes are precipitous, which gets me going.  It may just be too much for some. Contributing to that are the uneven lies that result, sometimes when you hit it "down the middle."  in some cases, the best lies were to one side only, and you had to plan to avoid a ball 5-6 inches above or below your feet. 

Blind Shots - Polarizing even among fans of GCA, the visual discomfort is again a bit much for some.  It's not as much as a course like Tobacco Road, but there are plenty of instances where you're aiming at an estimated spot on a distant tree.

In combination, I think those elements really upset some players, especially when they have a preset expectation of what golf "should" look like.  For me, those features ensure you will never be bored on a classic course is very short by modern day standards.


As for this being a Travis trait, I would say that the bold internal contours and spines are similar among the limited number of Travis courses I have played.  Prior to this year, my only Travis exposure was Orchard Park CC in WNY, and it is apparent to me that those greens must have been neutered over the years.  I played  4 more this year, and now understand what people mean by "Travis greens." I definitely want to see more examples.