What is not perfect about the 18th at Pebble Beach?

[Carl Nichols]

Kalen:
If you have no chance of reaching in two, why would you do anything other than simply try to hit the fairway with your drive and your second shot?  I get that your second shot (layup) might be somewhat shorter if you challenge the ocean, but that seems like a tradeoff not worth making if you can't get home in two (i.e., the reward of a somewhat shorter layup is substantially outweighed by the risk of a penalty shot from challenging the left side).  So off the tee the strategy seems to be to put it in the fairway.  Once you've hit the fairway, and you're deciding where to play your third from, is there a better angle from one side of the fairway or the other?  Or is it just about hitting the fairway at the distance you'd prefer to have?

So if the strategy for most players is make sure you hit is somewhere in the fairway with your drive, and somewhere in the fairway with your second, is it a very strategic hole . . . which, one could argue, is required for a "perfect" hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Carl,

The tree near the green has a lot of influence on that 2nd shot...and 3rd shot.  You don't want to be behind it when trying to make your approach, which means you now have to play closer to the bunker/ocean for the better approach angle into the green.  That's why they replaced that tree with another full size one when the original died because it made the layup and ensuing 3rd shot approach so much different as everyone could thoughtlessly hit their 2nd shot all the way down near the green without consequence.

The strategy off the tee is, do you challenge the left hand side to have a shorter short into the green if going for it in two.

[Matthew Petersen]

Kalen:
If you have no chance of reaching in two, why would you do anything other than simply try to hit the fairway with your drive and your second shot?  I get that your second shot (layup) might be somewhat shorter if you challenge the ocean, but that seems like a tradeoff not worth making if you can't get home in two (i.e., the reward of a somewhat shorter layup is substantially outweighed by the risk of a penalty shot from challenging the left side).  So off the tee the strategy seems to be to put it in the fairway.  Once you've hit the fairway, and you're deciding where to play your third from, is there a better angle from one side of the fairway or the other?  Or is it just about hitting the fairway at the distance you'd prefer to have?

So if the strategy for most players is make sure you hit is somewhere in the fairway with your drive, and somewhere in the fairway with your second, is it a very strategic hole . . . which, one could argue, is required for a "perfect" hole.

Carl,

You don't say if you've played the hole, but your analysis doesn't lead me to believe you have. The tee shot is not at an extreme angle, but you do have to choose a line even if you're just trying to get it in the fairway. Depending on the wind and how long you hit it, you might also be thinking of how to avoid ending up right behind the trees. On the second, if not going for the green, you again have angles to consider. The left side is certainly preferable to the right side, as the right side requires a carry over a bunker and can also be blocked out by the tree. But playing your second up the left is much more difficult as that's where the trouble is, and it's pushing into the fairway on that side.

[Bill_McBride]

Well, 20 responses and nobody mentioned that it plays directly into the setting sun.  That's less than perfect for an 18th hole!

Sorta like 17 bat Apache Stronghold?  That one almost blinded me!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are there many strategic decisions to make? 

Carl,

Watching on TV all those years before I played it, I thought it would play easy.

I thought that I would cut the corner of the ocean and that any ocean winds would push the ball toward the fairway.

But, it hasn't played that way.

On the tee you have to decide driver or 3-wood and if you decide driver, where to try to hit it.
And if you decide 3-wood, it will impact your third shot.

Depending where you hit your drive, you have to decide, 3-wood or iron, and you have to decide on where you want to aim, which can affect your third shot.

So yes, there are plenty of strategic decisions

Pat:
Those seem like pretty standard decisions, i.e., ones that you would make on most above-average par 5's.  Perhaps a better question woudl have been:  is the 18th as strategic as other world-class  holes? 

I think so.

I also think that you have to play the hole to have a better understanding of it's strategic requirements.

The Ocean, OB, and trees on the drive and the approach make it a terrric hole, not to mention the wind.

[Mike Hendren]

SteveO, I was blown away by the 17th because from the tee but for the flag it's hard to discern that a golf hole is actually there.  Just a low horizon to infinity and beyond.  However, the golfer needs no visual clue, having likely witnessed on the small screen two of the great shots in championship golf take place there.

The hole is the antithesis of "garanimals golf" where a long approach is typically paired with a deep green.  The result (when the pin is placed on the left side of the hourglass) is a wonderful half-par hole that also fits Donald Ross' purported design theory of hard par - easy bogey.  The design is not penal as four is easily achieved (by comparison very good players can make ruin a round at Cypress Point Club's 16th with one swing of the club) yet it's highly strategic since the lesser talent can prudently play to the extreme right side of the green, then pitch down its length for a potential one putt par.

That, and the right hand position provides elasticity both from a distance and hazard perspective.  Finally, as an extremely low ball hitter I had virtually no chance to hold the green from 185 yards when I played there.  I like architecture that doesn't accomodate lesser talent - it forces me to pick my poison and carefully plot my attack. 

Mike

[William_G]

Well, 20 responses and nobody mentioned that it plays directly into the setting sun.  That's less than perfect for an 18th hole!

Would you have a solution to this imperfection, LOL? thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well, 20 responses and nobody mentioned that it plays directly into the setting sun.  That's less than perfect for an 18th hole!

Would you have a solution to this imperfection, LOL? thanks

William,

The drive plays to the Northwest.
The second shot to the Northwest or WestNorthWest.
It's only the short approach to the green that plays into the sun as it sets.
Strangely, when I've played the hole late in the day, the sun was never a problem.

# 18 at NGLA also plays to the West, but, I think the topography, to a good degree, eliminates the sun in your eyes.

[William_G]

Well, 20 responses and nobody mentioned that it plays directly into the setting sun.  That's less than perfect for an 18th hole!

Would you have a solution to this imperfection, LOL? thanks

William,

The drive plays to the Northwest.
The second shot to the Northwest or WestNorthWest.
It's only the short approach to the green that plays into the sun as it sets.
Strangely, when I've played the hole late in the day, the sun was never a problem.

# 18 at NGLA also plays to the West, but, I think the topography, to a good degree, eliminates the sun in your eyes.

Thanks Tom

[Patrick_Mucci]

William,

Would you prefer that an issue be clarified, and/or that an error be perpetuated or corrected ?

No need for a solution to a problem that's minimal or doesn't exist.

If you had played the hole you would have known that.

[William_G]

William,

Would you prefer that an issue be clarified, and/or that an error be perpetuated or corrected ?

No need for a solution to a problem that's minimal or doesn't exist.

If you had played the hole you would have known that.

28385 and counting

[John Kavanaugh]

There are two ways to play the 18th at Pebble late in the day, either book a 3pm tee time or be leading a tournament.  Is there really an issue with finishing up a round at Pebble Beach as you watch the sun set across the ocean?  Sounds more like a perfect finish to me.

[Kalen Braley]

Is there really an issue with finishing up a round at Pebble Beach as you watch the sun set across the ocean?  Sounds more like a perfect finish to me.

I never thought I would say this...but I couldn't agree more john.

Doesn't get much better than coming up a hole like 18 at Pebble during that last "magic hour" of the day.