What did Pete Dye learn this week?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pete may be old enough to be past learning or caring that much.

[Carl Rogers]

I have heard many times on this site that par was just a number that did not matter.

Will length off the off the tee be a similar number? 

Will golf fans come to realize that the conditions of play will be the real determiner of score? and that will be a function of weather that cannot be controlled.

[Tim Liddy]

He learned and taught us all the most important lesson for golf architects. Stand at the eighteenth green and get yourself on television.

[William_G]

he learned that a firm and fast golf course is best obtained when building on a sand base

he learned that lift clean and place will break any course's back

[mike_beene]

At least bunkers were bunkers.

[Ross Harmon]

I haven't seen this article linked yet, but here was Pete's guesses on how Crooked Stick would play this week in his own words.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120908/SPORTS/209090339/BMW-Championship-Dye-expects-Sunday-s-winner-more-than-20-under-

I was at the tournament every day and very fortunate to be to spend some time with Pete this week. I watched some of the tournament with him and Alice at their home on TV. Pete was suprised by nothing. He's been doing this long enough to know exactly what to expect. At times, he would watch one of the pros line up a putt and immediately say "they'll miss it left" and then, it was missed left. His memory and ability to read the greens is incredible. At one point on Saturday, I suggested that maybe the winner would not get to 20 under... Pete looked at me sternly and said you're wrong. Winning score - 20 under, same score as the previous week. Score one for Pete and two for Rory.

There's other things that the PGA, WGA and Crooked Stick could do besides add length though. The first things that comes to my mind is to play #9 at 500 yards as a par 4. I saw many players have a sub-optimal hole here (Phil on Thurs, for instance) and still make birdie. Another would be to put the pins in tougher place - I saw many pins placed in the flattest places on the greens.

It seems as if the PGA and FedEx Cup WANTS birdies though to keep things exciting, which is certainly the case. The highlights that I personally saw were Tiger's chip in on #9 on Fri and Garrigus' putt on #13 on Sun - both amazing birdies. Nobody remembers a chip in for par or bogey.

Overall, it was a great tournament with an amazing leaderboard, huge crowds and an awesome staff/ volunteers who had some tough conditions to contend with. The PGA will not wait another 21 years to come back to Crooked Stick.

[Ted Sturges]

Ted,

In 1989 I was playing in one of the practice rounds for the USGA Mid-am at Crooked Stick when I spotted Pete on a bulldozer behind the 14th tee.

He came down off the dozer to say "hello" and we started chatting.
I asked him what he was doing.
I could see that he was building the footpad for a tee located back and further left of the current back tee.
This was in preparation for the 1991 PGA.

He said, "Pat, when you play at WFW, Baltusrol, # 2 and other courses, you use your 2 and 3-irons don't you ?"
I said, "yeah, all the time"
He said, "well so are those guys". Meaning the PGA Tour Pros.
He then launched into the reasons why he was lengthening and altering the angle of the tee (the hole is a sharp dogleg left with a creek following the dogleg and influencing the carry off the tee)
At the time I think that Pete and the PGA tour players were engaged in a love-hate relationship.
He went on to explain what he was trying to accomplish and what his views were with respect to testing the PGA Tour Pro.

I think his comments today would echo what they were 23 years ago, and that he'd lament the impact of high-tech on the game and older courses.

I also think he'd say that there isn't enough land at CS to present a test commensurate with the abilities of today's PGA Tour Pros.

Pat,  You inadvertantly made the point that I was thinking of when I started this thread...that lengthening the course is not the answer.  Pete's comments to you in 1989 about making them hit long irons for the 91 PGA were indicating his belief that by building that back tee on 14, he would solve the problem.  The trouble was...Daly hit sand wedge into 14 all 4 days in 91.  He was playing to a 250 yard WIDE fairway.  The bombers this past week hit it even longer than Daly did in 91.  I've got to believe that if he went back to that day in 1989, he would submit a different set of ideas on how to provide resistance to scoring at Crooked Stick OTHER than adding length.

TS

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted,

Remember, this is a member's club, so whatever was done to the course would impact subsequent member play.

In my mind, there was nothing else that Pete could do in 1989, other than lengthening and altering tee angles, to defend the golf course.

What are you suggesting he should have done ?

[Ted Sturges]

Ted,

Remember, this is a member's club, so whatever was done to the course would impact subsequent member play.

In my mind, there was nothing else that Pete could do in 1989, other than lengthening and altering tee angles, to defend the golf course.

What are you suggesting he should have done ?

Pat,  I'm suggesting that he should have done nothing.  I agree that it is a member's club.  Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on that course over the last 25 years and I don't think the course is better today than it was when I first played it as a 16 year old in 1977 (it has continued to drop in the rankings over the years, which might support this notion).  The green contours have actually been "softened", which reduces the challenges around the greens and reduces the ability of the hole setter to defend par with challenging hole locations (defenses still alive and well at The Old Course for example).  Pete just built an 8000 yard course in French Lick.  It seems to me that he has come to the conclusion that adding length is the answer, and the tour guys continue to prove that you just can't build courses long enough for them.  It is my opinion that Pete has not succeeded in making Crooked Stick tougher for the tour guys (and the members play it from 6600 or so...and with less contours in the greens, I think they play an easier course than the one they played in 1977) and my original post asked the question "what did he learn this week".  The general consensus here is that he learned nothing.  I tend to agree.

TS

[Matt Kardash]

I'm not sure why there are so many on this board who are so against any form of adding length to a course. If a course is to be played by pro golfers and is a par 72 it simply cannot play 6800 yards anymore. Those days are LONG gone. Accept it. Move on. The golf ball is out of control.

By no means am I pro adding more length, however I do realize that if a course is to be played by pros and is relatively flat and on a parkland site without much wind it cannot be 7000 yards anymore.

These days 300 yards off the tee is basically average. Now pros are hitting 8 irons about 170 yards. A 500 yard par 4 is no longer that long. It's sad to say but a long par 4 now is probably about 550 yards. A long par 3 is at least 250.
If you don't have some long holes like that every hole becomes a drive and a 9 iron. How is that interesting or a proper challenge?

[ward peyronnin]

Matt
You raise some very good points. Driver /nine iron is no more fun to watch than to play.

Let me change the question a bit to "Why wouldn't Pete Dye have learned that a shotmakers layout is more interesting than a long layout?"

Harbortown seems to generate more playing praise that Crooked Stick ever does. But is it just as unlikely to be able to  create shotmakers course these days to defend par as it is too add length and do the same? Gee I sure hope not but I'd like to hear form the minds on this site.

Very funny Mr Liddy; tho he has always been a master at that i believe

[Tom_Doak]

If a course is to be played by pro golfers and is a par 72 it simply cannot play 6800 yards anymore. Those days are LONG gone. Accept it. Move on. The golf ball is out of control.

But that's the problem, Matt.  A course COULD play 6800 yards today, if anybody would let it.  The winning score would be lower, but not nearly as much lower as you assume.  And so what if it is?

Ward says "driver/nine iron is no more fun to watch than it is to play," but even the lengthened 480 yard par-4's are driver/nine iron for these guys now.  So why lengthen?  It makes the back tees impossibly long for the members and doesn't make any significant difference to the pros.

If I were going to build a course today for a championship [like ... hypothetically ... a once-ever-four years international event of some sort ...], I would make the course pretty long.   But I still think the holes the pros would have the most trouble with would be some of the awkward short ones which they couldn't quite drive.

[Ted Sturges]

If a course is to be played by pro golfers and is a par 72 it simply cannot play 6800 yards anymore. Those days are LONG gone. Accept it. Move on. The golf ball is out of control.

But that's the problem, Matt.  A course COULD play 6800 yards today, if anybody would let it.  The winning score would be lower, but not nearly as much lower as you assume.  And so what if it is?

Ward says "driver/nine iron is no more fun to watch than it is to play," but even the lengthened 480 yard par-4's are driver/nine iron for these guys now.  So why lengthen?  It makes the back tees impossibly long for the members and doesn't make any significant difference to the pros.

If I were going to build a course today for a championship [like ... hypothetically ... a once-ever-four years international event of some sort ...], I would make the course pretty long.   But I still think the holes the pros would have the most trouble with would be some of the awkward short ones which they couldn't quite drive.

Agree, agree, agree.

TS

[Jim Sherma]

How long would a course have to play to offer a similar challenge to Winged Foot 1974? I can't imagine it could possibly be less than 8000+ yards.

[Gary Slatter]

I think he needs more sand on the greens and fairways.  As Old Tom would say "Sand, more sand". 

[Matt Kardash]

If a course is to be played by pro golfers and is a par 72 it simply cannot play 6800 yards anymore. Those days are LONG gone. Accept it. Move on. The golf ball is out of control.

But that's the problem, Matt.  A course COULD play 6800 yards today, if anybody would let it.  The winning score would be lower, but not nearly as much lower as you assume.  And so what if it is?

Ward says "driver/nine iron is no more fun to watch than it is to play," but even the lengthened 480 yard par-4's are driver/nine iron for these guys now.  So why lengthen?  It makes the back tees impossibly long for the members and doesn't make any significant difference to the pros.

If I were going to build a course today for a championship [like ... hypothetically ... a once-ever-four years international event of some sort ...], I would make the course pretty long.   But I still think the holes the pros would have the most trouble with would be some of the awkward short ones which they couldn't quite drive.

Tom,
I get what you are saying. I hear you loud and clear, I really do. However, what happens in 20 years when drivers rountinely go 330? Are you just going to say let's have pro golfers play a 7000 yard par 72? Every hole will be driver and a wedge, with a few drived greens thrown into the mix.
Also, the vast majority of golf clubs have no desire to lengthen their courses because they have no dreams of professional events being played on them. So what if a course like Crooked stick adds a few back tees that pros play once every few years? The course is probably making a good deal of money by holding these pro events, so they can afford whatever it costs to smooth a pile of dirty and grass it and make a tee box.
I think if I were to build a course for pros I would build super long par 4s  or short par 4s. Mid length par 4s are irrelvant to the pro game and will eventually beecome short par 4s.
Honestly, i don't give a crap about the winning score. I am more concerned in the integrity of playing a golf course the way it is supposed to be played.

[Matt Kardash]

I know I am over-simplifying things. But I am doing it for a reason. I don't think the answer is lengthening, and I don't think the answer is having pros play 6900 yard par 72s.
The ball and clubs need to be controlled.
Id rather a course like Merion remain as is instead of trying to trick up the course to have pros play it. If a course is obsolete for the pro game then so be it, I guess. Move onto another course that can handle them.
If crooked Stick wants to add in some back tees because they want to continue hosting pro tournaments then that is their business. I don't see it as an abomination because a classic course adds a new back tee.

[Ross Harmon]

The ball and clubs need to be controlled.

As I flew back from Indy yesterday, I was reading MacKenzie and he was suggesting this 80 years ago. Dye has also been suggesting this for decades. To me, this is a much bigger issue for the USGA and R&A over belly putters.

[Matthew Rose]

Part of the reason why 8-irons go 170 yards now is that they have the loft of 7-irons. I've noticed this comparing my trusty old Ping Eye 2s with the new G15s and G20s. Ping irons are essentially a full club stronger than they used to be. Not sure how it is with other brands but I would be surprised if it wasn't the same.

[Tom_Doak]

I think if I were to build a course for pros I would build super long par 4s  or short par 4s. Mid length par 4s are irrelvant to the pro game and will eventually beecome short par 4s.

Matt:

This has been Pete Dye's formula for 40 years.  He taught it to me in 1984.  Of course, I later figured out that Dr. MacKenzie did the same thing.

The problem today is that THERE ARE NO super long par-4's.  When I worked for Pete, the USGA's supposed length limit on a par 4 was 470 yards, and Pete was pushing 485 yards on the longer ones to try and make them long.  [At Kiawah, he routed the longer par-4's into the wind to try and help make them longer.]  More recently, we've seen 510-yard par-4's in the U.S. Open ... but even those are 6-iron approaches for a lot of the pros and 9-irons for some of them if the fairways are firm.  

A true long two-shotter for the pros today would be 550-570 yards.  But nobody will call that a par-4.

[Matt Kardash]

I think if I were to build a course for pros I would build super long par 4s  or short par 4s. Mid length par 4s are irrelvant to the pro game and will eventually beecome short par 4s.

Matt:

This has been Pete Dye's formula for 40 years.  He taught it to me in 1984.  Of course, I later figured out that Dr. MacKenzie did the same thing.

The problem today is that THERE ARE NO super long par-4's.  When I worked for Pete, the USGA's supposed length limit on a par 4 was 470 yards, and Pete was pushing 485 yards on the longer ones to try and make them long.  [At Kiawah, he routed the longer par-4's into the wind to try and help make them longer.]  More recently, we've seen 510-yard par-4's in the U.S. Open ... but even those are 6-iron approaches for a lot of the pros and 9-irons for some of them if the fairways are firm.  

A true long two-shotter for the pros today would be 550-570 yards.  But nobody will call that a par-4.

I feel like I just said all this!   
I don't know, maybe we just need to get over our pre-conceived notions and nostalgia of the past and call a 550 yard hole what it is: a par 4. I'm not saying to call it that for the average player, but for the pros it certainly is. We are definitely at the stage where there are two distinct levels of golf; golf for us humans and golf for pros.
It's a shame it is coming to this, but unless they do something about the ball and clubs there isn't really a whole lot of choice.
I feel like in the past 5 years it has especially gotten even more out of hand. I am rountinely seeing some of the longer players hitting 190 yard 8 irons. 10 years ago an 8 iron was still 150 yards! 3 woods now go about 280 yards in soft conditions. 15 years ago you would have been in the top 10 in driving if you could drive it that far!
I think the best thing an architect can do is not be mandated to build championship courses so they don't have to care about designing for the pro game. Honestly, that is probably the secret to Doak and C&C's success...well that and getting to build on the best sites of the last 75 years! 

[Ross Harmon]

A course COULD play 6800 yards today, if anybody would let it.  The winning score would be lower, but not nearly as much lower as you assume. 

Tom,
Just curious... what would you guess the pros would shoot in a 4 day event at Pacific Dunes (~6600 yd) in average conditions?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Just curious... what would you guess the pros would shoot in a 4 day event at Pacific Dunes (~6600 yd) in average conditions?

Ross:

The secret to Pacific Dunes' length is that it's a very windy place, and it can be short because the holes playing into the wind that day will never play short.   The course was built on the premise that there would always be some wind, and on the rare days there wasn't, that is was okay for good players to be able to go low -- but knowing those days are in the minority.

But there is no such thing as an average wind there, so I can't multiply it out and give you a winning score.  It would be 10 shots different depending on the wind, at least, over four days.  With no wind somebody would shoot -25.  With the typical summer afternoon winds, -10 would be pretty good. 

[ward peyronnin]

Watched the 99 Ryder Cup replay and first hole drives were 260/270 leaving a 185 to 190 five or four iron in

equipment pimps we are now

[Sean_A]

The problem with all these discussions is they are in the context of pros.  Short of equipment roll backs, the only way to change the pro game is to stop supporting it and accommodating for the pro game.  Hitting the pocket books of pro athletes is all they understand.  The problem is with the pro game.  Instead of requiring pros to figure out how to deal with the problem, everybody else runs around like headless chickens looking for solutions.  Why - its a money and ego game.  Nobody wants to park their ego or take a financial hit. 

Ciao