How good is Crooked Stick?

[David Stewart]

I have only played it once, and it was near the beginning of my fascination with GCA. At the time it was one of the top courses I had played but has since seemed less and less appealing. To me, it has an uninspiring opener, a bland stretch to start the back nine, and a "hit the fairway or else" closing hole. Few holes leave me itching to go back out to play again (maybe 6 or 8?).

So I guess the questions I have are:
Does anyone disagree and really love it? Think it is worthy of hosting another major?
Has Dye tinkered with it to the point he has made it worse since it opened?
Did it ever have a chance to be really great due to the flat terrain upon which it is set?
Is it even the best course in the Indianapolis area? (One could argue Broadmoor has better greens and The Fort and Wolf Run definitely have better topography)

Please share your thoughts on any or all of these questions or add other comments. Thanks!

[Josh Tarble]

I was able to play it this summer and was a little underwhelmed as well....don't get me wrong its a good course, definitely top tier in Indy, but I had high expectations and it didn't really meet them.

I think my main disappointment was with the par 3s - they all felt the same to me...needed to hit a draw with a long iron to a well protected green with all roughly the same yardage.  A lot of water too.  Which I think are always main complaints of mine when I play a Dye course.

That being said, I think holes 7,9 and the stretch of 11-15 are world class.  The routing is very good, it's a very easy walk and the holes really blend into the land very well.  18 is as tough as it gets too.

In my opinion, of Pete Dye courses, I have it behind Whistling Straits, Harbor Town and Sawgrass, but ahead of Blackwolf Run.  I haven't had the opportunity to play Pete Dye GC or the Golf Club however.  My guess is that it would be very comparable to those courses - just from pictures and descriptions.

[Nigel Islam]

I was able to play it this summer and was a little underwhelmed as well....don't get me wrong its a good course, definitely top tier in Indy, but I had high expectations and it didn't really meet them.

I think my main disappointment was with the par 3s - they all felt the same to me...needed to hit a draw with a long iron to a well protected green with all roughly the same yardage.  A lot of water too.  Which I think are always main complaints of mine when I play a Dye course.

That being said, I think holes 7,9 and the stretch of 11-15 are world class.  The routing is very good, it's a very easy walk and the holes really blend into the land very well.  18 is as tough as it gets too.

In my opinion, of Pete Dye courses, I have it behind Whistling Straits, Harbor Town and Sawgrass, but ahead of Blackwolf Run.  I haven't had the opportunity to play Pete Dye GC or the Golf Club however.  My guess is that it would be very comparable to those courses - just from pictures and descriptions.

I think this is spot on. It is a very good course, and I would rank it ahead of Pete Dye French Lick and Blackwolf. It has some very good holes, but it just is not as interesting overall as Harbour Town, Whistling Straits or what I have seen on tv of Kiawah/Sawgrass. It has been 11 years since I played it and I have a lot of trouble remembering a few of the holes. I played Harbour Town the next year and I remember everything.

[David Stewart]

Josh,

Thanks for your comments. I actually thought the par 3s were decent and varied. None of those holes look the same, and I would argue that you wouldn't want to hit a draw on 6 or else you would have to start it over the pond (for a righty). Only two of them contain water, which actually seems low for most Dye courses.

I do not share your same views on 7 or 11. Can you sell me on those two holes?

[Terry Lavin]

I haven't played anywhere in Indy, which is stupid because it's not that far from me, but I was intrigued by Brad Klein's clever and enjoyable hole-by-hole analysis on golfweek.com

As an old follower and supporter of the Western/Motorola/Cialis/BMW/FedEx Cup Playoff tournament, I'm just happy to see it at a different venue than Cog Hill, because I was tired of all of the whining by the one tanned hand crowd.  Let 'em bitch about Pete Dye and see how far that gets 'em.

[Josh Tarble]

David,
On the par 3s...you could say they all look different, which is true.  I just think they play relatively similar.  3 and 17 play similar, although 17 is probably a touch longer.  But I just have a poor opinion of having all par 3s on a course within such a small yardage.

As for 7 and 11, those might have been my favorite holes:

7 - the drive is somewhat blind, but you can see the green, which wants to align you further to the right than you should play.  The DZ is tiered, with the left tier being flatter and right sloped to the right...however, the right side is the optimal angle to come in at that green.  So the decision is level lie or optimal angle into the green. I thought the green was pretty good, with shaved banks on all sides, not much internal contour

11 - again the drive is blind - if you want to have a go at the green, you'll need to crush one down the left side - which is protected by bunkers - and if you can reach the crest of the hill you'll have a nice kick forward.  If you're laying up, down the right side is the optimal play

To go for the green means a long carry over a multitude of pot bunkers and getting up and down is no guarantee and the green is a two-tiered affair sloped severely back to front - designed in my opinion to accept a long iron or wood hitting it.

Laying up down the left side leaves a wedge in, but because the green is so severe, too much spin will suck you off the green or the proper tier and going long is pretty much dead.

[David Stewart]

Terry - Thanks for mentioning the article by Mr. Klein. I hadn't seen that yet.

Josh - I can somewhat agree with you on 11. If you are a big hitter there is some strategy. On 7 though I just don't see it. I think that is one of my least favorite holes on the course, maybe 2nd only to #1. Even the left side of the fairway isn't that bad of an angle to the green, and could actually be favorable if the pin is right. It is a dead straight drive without a big advantage on tee placement. Here is what Brad Klein wrote in his article:

"Here’s the lull before the storm. Pretty straightforward, a left-to-right drive past an inconsequential fairway bunker on the right followed by a right-to-left middle iron to a fall-away green."

[Howard Riefs]

...I was intrigued by Brad Klein's clever and enjoyable hole-by-hole analysis on golfweek.com

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/04/hole-hole-crooked-stick-golf-club/

Verb of the day: "hew"

Crooked Stick Golf Club is one of Pete Dye’s earliest gems and the course that put him on the map as an iconoclastic genius. ... The course opened up in 1967 to rave reviews for its adaptation of classical-era design principles. It took Dye three years of work to hew the low-lying site into golf ground.

[John Kavanaugh]

Crooked Stick has an excellent walking and multicultural environment.  I can't imagine a better course for a guy and his wife who are serious golfers to be members.  The course itself is a bit simple for my taste with flat greens, level bunkers and few hazards off the tee.  The members handicaps do not travel well because it is rated for slope far higher than it plays.  I played a few rounds a couple of years ago that wrecked my handicap for months.  I could not argue that it isn't the best course in Indiana if it lost the greenside fans.  Until the fans are removed it can't hold a candle to Pete Dye French Lick.

The pros will wreck the place.

[Josh Tarble]

I can see that...we played the par 4s from the blue tees, which is a bit lower on that hill, so I think it made the drive a bit more interesting, I just thought the contours of the fairway were good...you needed to line up further left to keep it in the fairway.  I'm guessing from the back, you don't hit as much as that slope either.

It also could be that it seemed much better because it was in between my two least favorite holes  

[Josh Tarble]

John,
Totally agree on the culture and the membership.  If my wife was a bit more serious about playing, we'd join in a heartbeat (as it is, she wants the pool, tennis courts - all the stuff I don't care about).

Agree that the pros will demolish it.  I'm thinking -18 or lower will win, especially with all this rain we've been having as late.

[John Kavanaugh]

You need to build you own pool.  After watching Honey Boo Boo I'm never getting in a public water facility again.

[Chris Clouser]

David,

Good questions. From a local person's view here is how I would answer them.

I personally don't love the course.  There are a few holes that I think are really standouts, but the course overall doesn't inspire that type of response.  I don't know that it could host a major for a multitude of reasons, but I think it would be a good host for a Senior level major like it hosted with the US Senior Open.  I don't know that it is enough of a challenge or adequate infrastructure wise without some real trickery on either front for the regular PGA again or the US Open.

I have seen the course over three decades and it has changed in several ways but still maintains the overall tone.  I think the look of the course was better back prior to the Daly-PGA event, but I think the course is in better condition and is perhaps tougher than it was then.  Overall, I liked it better back then, but I think it is a fine line and a matter of opinion only.

I guess greatness depends on your definition.  We are talking about a course that is continually ranked among the top 100 in the nation.  It is often cited as one of Pete's best courses by him and other people that have studied his career.  It continues to stay relevant on the top level of golf by hosting events like the BMW, Senior Open, and Solheim Cup.  If those things don't put in the conversation of being "great" then you have a tougher standard to meet than most.  Is it the best course in the Midwest, no.  But the best in Indy or Indiana, possibly.

Is it the best in Indy?  I haven't seen Wolf Run, so I can't comment on that one, but I have seen everything else worth considering at some point in my travels around town and I would say yes.  Is the gap as great as many would lead you to believe?  No.  There has been a lot of quality golf built in Indy since the 1980s and places like Sagamore, Wolf Run, and Bridgewater really provided some other examples of solid design to the private clubs in town.  The public courses like Trophy Club, Prairie View, The Fort, Prugatory, etc have really upped the level of golf on the public side to where any of those courses can be compared to some place like Crooked Stick and not be laughed at.  I guess in summary you could say that perhaps Crooked Stick is the best known course in Indy, but there are several other courses around the metro area that are worthy of being seen.

[David Stewart]

Chris,

Thanks for your comments. I agree with most of what you said. My question is on the "greatness" of CS. I know it is continually ranked in the top 100 and Pete may say it is one of his best courses, but I don't think those things make it great, at least not for me. If you don't love it, can it be great?

[Jim Franklin]

Crooked Stick has an excellent walking and multicultural environment.  I can't imagine a better course for a guy and his wife who are serious golfers to be members.  The course itself is a bit simple for my taste with flat greens, level bunkers and few hazards off the tee.  The members handicaps do not travel well because it is rated for slope far higher than it plays.  I played a few rounds a couple of years ago that wrecked my handicap for months.  I could not argue that it isn't the best course in Indiana if it lost the greenside fans.  Until the fans are removed it can't hold a candle to Pete Dye French Lick.

The pros will wreck the place.

The best in Indiana is Victoria National and it isn't that close. I understand you know this too, but I wanted to point it out.

Crooked Stick does have the best Head Pro in the business though.

[Ted Sturges]

Crooked Stick has an excellent walking and multicultural environment.  I can't imagine a better course for a guy and his wife who are serious golfers to be members.  The course itself is a bit simple for my taste with flat greens, level bunkers and few hazards off the tee.  The members handicaps do not travel well because it is rated for slope far higher than it plays.  I played a few rounds a couple of years ago that wrecked my handicap for months.  I could not argue that it isn't the best course in Indiana if it lost the greenside fans.  Until the fans are removed it can't hold a candle to Pete Dye French Lick.

The pros will wreck the place.

This is an interesting thread.  Thanks Nephew David for starting it. 

The above comments caught my eye.  I have a couple of questions:

1.  What is a "multicultural environment"?

2.  Though I am not a big fan of Crooked Stick compared to my own list of favorite courses, I am even less of a fan of the Pete Dye French Lick course.  What about that course architecturally has you such a fan Mr. Kavanaugh? 

TS

[PCCraig]

I really like Crooked Stick, and by the sound of this thread, I must be in the minority. I enjoyed that it wasn't like other more modern Dyes where it beat you over the head with visuals, but there are a bunch of really neat holes. As mentioned above, 7 & 11 are really good. I think #15 is fantastic and features an awesome horseshoe green. #6 and #17 are also really good par-3's.

What exactly don't people like?

[Chris Clouser]

David,

My comments just provided other opinions that would put it on the border line of being great or actually considered great by most definitions.  It is in the top 1% of courses in the state of Indiana and probably around the nation.  If that is the case then it would be hard to argue against it being considered great by the large part of the golfing community.  In my opinion it is very good, but just as good as several that I have seen described as great on this same website and suffers from some of the same prejudices that exist whenever courses are discussed on this site; not designed by an ODG, not in the NE part of the country, and not located within view of the ocean.  I think the important thing is that the people at CS are very comfortable with where they are, regardless of the opinion of me or anyone else.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Ted,

Multicultural environment.  By this I am referring to various golf cultures.  Sticks, hacks, men, women, children, walkers and cart ballers.  I don't believe I have ever seen a course where every culture is so welcome.  To me this has everything to do with Alice Dye and the special relationship her and Pete have shared through the years.

French Lick Dye.  I love that course most of all because it is empty and in perfect condition.  I was up there yesterday and a group of tourists were stumbling around trying to get a group picture taken in front of the Dye statue.  The head super was driving by, stopped and got out of his truck, and took the picture while they posed in various states of Indiana stupor. The views combined with the outstanding service has a way of making you feel special about yourself.  Damn, I just realized how much it reminds me of Dismal River.  Sadly, I like that kind of stuff.

Architecturally the course fits my game perfectly.  I love the narrow fairways where if you do hit a bad shot the rough is still a moderate at worst shot to the green.  I believe every green can be reached by bouncing the ball on.  I love tightly mown chipping areas because I will use my putter anywhere from 50 yds in.  The greens are very small which limits my three putting.  The course is an easy walk if that is in need for the day.  Something also begs you to play 36 holes each time you visit.  I don't get tired there.

But most of all number one reason I love the place is that they don't need greenside fans to keep the greens perfect and the fairways are firm no matter the heat index.  That has as much to do with properly designed architecture as the maintenance budget.  Oh wait, am I talking about Dismal again?

[David Stewart]

I really like Crooked Stick, and by the sound of this thread, I must be in the minority. I enjoyed that it wasn't like other more modern Dyes where it beat you over the head with visuals, but there are a bunch of really neat holes. As mentioned above, 7 & 11 are really good. I think #15 is fantastic and features an awesome horseshoe green. #6 and #17 are also really good par-3's.

What exactly don't people like?

The strategy is there and there are some very cool features as you mentioned, but I think the topography (or lack thereof) is what I don't really like. It is of course no fault to Dye (other than picking that location). He probably did the best he could with the given land. Most people who aren't from Indiana probably aren't familiar with The Fort, but it is on the east side of Indianapolis and I would argue that many who played both courses without knowing the reputation or history of CS would say The Fort is better. Dye had much better land and really did an impressive job with the routing.

In regards to #7 at CS, what is all the fuss about with that hole? I just don't see how it is one of the best on the course.         

[Chris Clouser]

David,

Perhaps a hole by hole comparison of the two courses would be in order if you want to compare the Fort and Crooked Stick.  The routing sequence is similar and could generate some nice discussion.  I think one thing that would eventually help Crooked Stick trump the Fort is the quality of the par threes there in comparison to the Fort and that even the most bland holes at Crooked Stick top the bland holes at the Fort.  But it would be an interesting exercise.  Also, I think you are overrating the terrain and its impact at the Fort.  Holes 4 through 6 and then 10, 11, and 18 are the ones that have the real impact of that terrain.  The rest of the course has some nice movement, but only considered extreme in the flat land of Indiana, and not that much beyond what can be experienced on the back nine at Crooked Stick.  Eagle Creek would be a much better argument for movement in the terrain as the original 18 hole course had over half of the holes feature some sort of large movement from green to tee.  But the greens there relied much more on slope rather than contour and the bunkering was rather simplistic.  I see the Fort as a good mediium between EC and CS.

[Peter Ferlicca]

I only played Crooked Stick two times during my childhood growing up in Carmel, IN.  I first played it when I was in Junior High, not knowing  anything about golf course architecture, I don't remember anything from that round.  The second time I played it was when I was a junior at Carmel High School, I was friends with a girl who was a daughter of a member..  This time still not knowing anything really about golf course architecture, but I do remember the topography, and how the course was routed.  Crooked Stick is on pretty basic Central Indiana terrian, which is pretty flat with maybe a couple slight rolls or ridges.  I grew up playing the Pete Dye courses in Indiana, ex; Woodland CC, Bridgewater, Plum Creek, Sahm, Eagle Creek, The Fort.  Crooked Stick is by far the best of those bunch.  It has all the typical Dye Characteristics, but is not sensory overload on any particular one.  I always thought Dye was the best growing up in his hometown, so Crooked Stick was the holy grail.  Now living in many other parts of the country and experiencing different and better golf courses, Crooked Stick is still special, but not among the very best.

Compared to others in Indiana, I haven't played Victoria National so I can't comment on that.

Wolf Run is on some of the best property in the Midwest I have ever seen.  I find that course to be a continuous hidden gem that gets no respect.  I would play Wolf Run over Crooked Stick in 10 rounds, 7-3

[Ken Fry]

Ted,

Multicultural environment.  By this I am referring to various golf cultures.  Sticks, hacks, men, women, children, walkers and cart ballers.  I don't believe I have ever seen a course where every culture is so welcome.  To me this has everything to do with Alice Dye and the special relationship her and Pete have shared through the years.

French Lick Dye.  I love that course most of all because it is empty and in perfect condition.  I was up there yesterday and a group of tourists were stumbling around trying to get a group picture taken in front of the Dye statue.  The head super was driving by, stopped and got out of his truck, and took the picture while they posed in various states of Indiana stupor. The views combined with the outstanding service has a way of making you feel special about yourself.  Damn, I just realized how much it reminds me of Dismal River.  Sadly, I like that kind of stuff.

Architecturally the course fits my game perfectly.  I love the narrow fairways where if you do hit a bad shot the rough is still a moderate at worst shot to the green.  I believe every green can be reached by bouncing the ball on.  I love tightly mown chipping areas because I will use my putter anywhere from 50 yds in.  The greens are very small which limits my three putting.  The course is an easy walk if that is in need for the day.  Something also begs you to play 36 holes each time you visit.  I don't get tired there.

But most of all number one reason I love the place is that they don't need greenside fans to keep the greens perfect and the fairways are firm no matter the heat index.  That has as much to do with properly designed architecture as the maintenance budget.  Oh wait, am I talking about Dismal again?

John,

Has French Lick lightened up on the requirement to stay at the resort to play the course?

Ken

[Josh Tarble]

I don't know how much this is reality, but I think it could be #1 and #8 that cause a lot of people to find fault in the course.

#1 has to be in the contention of worst opening holes on a highly regarded course.  It's just straight, boring, a little claustrophobic and in my opinion, totally out of character with the rest of the course.  I don't really understand how that hole came to be.

And #8 is a classic Pete Dye hole, but it's just so overly penal and not fun at all to play.  It requires two perfect shots or you're making double bogey.  

The course also has a lot of extreme doglegs, which may not fit the eye of some people.

[Steve Burrows]

To me, Crooked Stick is a very good golf course, but it does seem to fall short of being great. The alterations (softening) to the greens prior to the 1991 PGA notwithstanding, it is a place that is just simply falling out of favor due to shifts in architectural trends.  There are certainly a couple of holes that are not bad, just indifferent (4 and 10 come to mind) but I would also say that there are some other very interesting features out there, including: the bold, angular front left bunker on 5, the serene beauty of the 6th, the cape-style 8th, the misdirection on the tee shot at 12, the breathtaking boomerang green at 15, the Biarritz-style green on the long par 4 16, the curiously rumpled nature of the 18th fairway.  

Interestingly, the place seems to have a lot of elements of good golf that are celebrated on other courses.  But whereas its weaknesses are not really that weak (in relative terms), its strong points just don't seem to give the golf course enough gusto to be considered great, especially when one considers the high level of so many golf course that have debuted since the late 1960s; Crooked Stick comes across as a bit "ho-hum" when placed against a Sand Hills or the like.  Crooked Stick, while still a feather in Pete Dye's cap, is very much a product of its time, and which does not translate fully to current preferences.