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Ally Mcintosh

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Sardine routings on classic courses
« on: September 06, 2012, 08:10:12 AM »
A follow on to the sociable routing thread...

When playing or routing a course, I generally dislike / try and avoid turning a hole back directly on the previous one and playing straight back again. However two sequential parallel holes are not that bad and there are tonnes of examples on classic courses...

However, it really starts to get noticeable if you do the same thing for a third hole... And if it happens a fourth time, it can't but affect the feel and flow (hence often people try and break this up by using a par-3 at one end to create a triangle with two slight doglegs)...

What examples of sardine routings of 3, 4, 5 or more holes are there on good courses?... Note holes have to be sequential and generally par 4's and 5's

Phil McDade

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 08:25:38 AM »
Ally:

Since I'm spending time look at aerials of the course, the back nine at Lawsonia -- a very good course -- has this feature. After the opening  par 3 10th, the holes run: par 5 11th -- due north; par 3 12th -- angled to the northeast; par 5 13th -- the tee shot runs southwest and parallels the 12th hole, then turns due south and parallels the 11th; the par 3 14th is a connector through the woods that runs east; the par 4 15th runs due north and parallels much of the 13th; the par 4 16th continues to run north and runs alongside portions of 13 and 12 and ends in the far corner of the property; the par 4 17th runs at an angle to the southwest, and parallels part of 12; and the par 5 18th runs due south and parallels the 11th nearly the entire way.

There is an intimacy, if that's the right word, for the back nine at Lawsonia, because you can see lots of other holes on the back nine due to continued tree-clearing efforts there. I've not been to Oakmont, but I sense Lawsonia has a similar feel in terms of "wide-openness." There is a bit of a sense of "back and forthing" on the back nine at Lawsonia, contrasting with the wandering journey you take on the front nine, where the holes take you on a trip largely around the perimeter of the large parcel of land on which the front nine sits. But, the back nine is still quite good, because the holes utilize the lay of the land so well.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 08:27:52 AM »
The back nine at East Lake has a series of back and forth holes through 16.   I really think it's a weakness of an otherwise solid course. 

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 08:34:50 AM »
First three at Turnberry?
2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (North), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Francisco

Carl Nichols

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 10:25:38 AM »
13, 14, 15, and 17 at Cal Club [broken up by the short par 3 16th] all run back and forth.   

David_Tepper

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 11:06:48 AM »
Nairn GC has 4 "back-and-forth" holes at the west end of the property, which is pretty unusual for a links. I think they are holes 6 thru 9. Fortunately, they are all pretty good holes. 

Guy Nicholson

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 11:11:42 AM »
Don Valley, Toronto: 16 (305 yards), 17 (291) and 18 (292) are sardines -- with 1 (329), 9 (325) and 14 (375) in the same corridor.

It might be pushing it to call the course classic (1956).

Jason Topp

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 12:09:21 PM »
I like it when courses do this on the first two holes.  Newcastle, Riviera, and Texarkana CC are courses that come immediately to mind.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 12:54:52 PM »
Firestone is only back and forth holes except 1 or 2

D_Malley

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 01:04:55 PM »
Philadelphia Cricket Club has several back and forth hole stretches

holes 4-5-6-7

four and seven (par 5's)  running one direction and 5 & 6 (both short par 4's) come back the other direction

I kind of like they way this was done with the two short par 4's covering the distance of the par 5's

The back nine has another back and forth stretch on holes 11-12-13

Matthew Rose

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2012, 01:07:47 PM »
Firestone is only back and forth holes except 1 or 2

Might be the best example.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

jonathan_becker

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2012, 01:15:18 PM »
Firestone is only back and forth holes except 1 or 2

Might be the best example.



holes 2-4, 9-10, 13-15, 16-18 all fit the "turning a hole back directly on the previous one and playing straight back again."  Some of the other holes run in the same direction, but don't turn around.

At Inverness, 13-17 qualifies as well.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 01:34:55 PM »
Those first few holes at The Olympic Club are sardine holes on a tilt.

1, 2 and 3 at Royal Melbourne West also go back and forth, but they are pretty plump to be called sardines.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 02:12:39 PM »
Cal Club of SF 13-17 (10 and 11 also follow suit).
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Sean_A

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 02:16:05 AM »
A follow on to the sociable routing thread...

When playing or routing a course, I generally dislike / try and avoid turning a hole back directly on the previous one and playing straight back again. However two sequential parallel holes are not that bad and there are tonnes of examples on classic courses...

However, it really starts to get noticeable if you do the same thing for a third hole... And if it happens a fourth time, it can't but affect the feel and flow (hence often people try and break this up by using a par-3 at one end to create a triangle with two slight doglegs)...

What examples of sardine routings of 3, 4, 5 or more holes are there on good courses?... Note holes have to be sequential and generally par 4's and 5's

Ally

I am curious as to why you don't like sequential parallel holes.  There are times when it can feel a bit like a sardine tin, but as is always the case, if done well I wouldn't have thought it matters much.  In fact, on a links it can be very cool.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2012, 02:50:54 AM »
Isnt the back nine at Inverness the poster child for what you describe?

Matthew Runde

Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 03:42:18 AM »
Firestone is only back and forth holes except 1 or 2

That was the first one to pop into my head.  I haven't played it, but I think that, even on TV and in pictures, it looks painfully uninspired.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 04:00:05 AM »
A follow on to the sociable routing thread...

When playing or routing a course, I generally dislike / try and avoid turning a hole back directly on the previous one and playing straight back again. However two sequential parallel holes are not that bad and there are tonnes of examples on classic courses...

However, it really starts to get noticeable if you do the same thing for a third hole... And if it happens a fourth time, it can't but affect the feel and flow (hence often people try and break this up by using a par-3 at one end to create a triangle with two slight doglegs)...

What examples of sardine routings of 3, 4, 5 or more holes are there on good courses?... Note holes have to be sequential and generally par 4's and 5's

Ally

I am curious as to why you don't like sequential parallel holes.  There are times when it can feel a bit like a sardine tin, but as is always the case, if done well I wouldn't have thought it matters much.  In fact, on a links it can be very cool.

Ciao

Sean,

Maybe it matters more to me than most but generally I find it quite uninviting to head on up a long par-4 in the full knowledge that I am turning straight back around again and passing the same spot 15 minutes later.

There is a spot on St.Annes (a Dublin links that shares Bull Island with Royal Dublin) where 11-16 run back and forth. It seriously detracts from the experience despite there being individually good holes amongst those 6.... Even at Lahinch (which if pushed I'd name as my favourite course in Ireland) I find heading back out 15 after what seemingly feels like a turn for home on the 14th tee a tiny little bit deflating....

As you state though, on good courses it is usually done well and as I stated it only really becomes a problem for me on obvious cases of 3 holes or more.... It can seem a little clinical... lacking in playfulness... It certainly wouldn't be the way you would walk a property naturally if there were no course there (to paraphrase from Tom Doak)...


Sean_A

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 04:32:57 AM »
The Lahinch example doesn't faze me in the least because 15 is a good hole. 

I think archies can be playful with the idea.  For instance, Harlech's 8 & 9th are sequential parallel par 5s. Because of wind, for most only one can be reached.  It sort of puts a pressure on the player to get 9 total strokes and if the downwind hole is messed up the card is in a jeopardy.  I can't see why SPHs are any less attractive than say three holes heading in the same direction. 

I always wondered about the natural walk scenario and can't get over the problem with that concept is twofold.  First, the house is artificially the starting point and second I would tend to do much shorter walks than the "18 holes" - maybe that is why I prefer shorter courses.  Anyway, the "natural walk" sounds good without giving it much thought, but it only truly works if golf is on the mind.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2012, 07:59:08 AM »
The Lahinch example doesn't faze me in the least because 15 is a good hole. 

I think archies can be playful with the idea.  For instance, Harlech's 8 & 9th are sequential parallel par 5s. Because of wind, for most only one can be reached.  It sort of puts a pressure on the player to get 9 total strokes and if the downwind hole is messed up the card is in a jeopardy.  I can't see why SPHs are any less attractive than say three holes heading in the same direction. 

I always wondered about the natural walk scenario and can't get over the problem with that concept is twofold.  First, the house is artificially the starting point and second I would tend to do much shorter walks than the "18 holes" - maybe that is why I prefer shorter courses.  Anyway, the "natural walk" sounds good without giving it much thought, but it only truly works if golf is on the mind.

Ciao   

Sean, I think the intent from Tom was that golf was on the mind... And even if it wasn't, that was the way I interpret and use it. i.e. The natural flow of the property whilst walking during a site analysis...

Harlech's example may play well but (and I'll wait for someone to disagree) I don't think an architect ever deliberately routes a parallel hole back on itself for strategic reasons. It's because it's the best fit or even compromise for the site....

Generally speaking though, it is very rare that courses have enough room to never turn back on themselves so as long as it's done well. It's when the green ends up right beside the previous tee for the 2nd time (i.e 3rd straight hole) that I think it can have a big detrimental effect on the natural rythym.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2012, 08:12:51 AM »
Another problem with a lot of back-and-forth parallel holes is that it's difficult to put the greens and tees close together.  You have to walk far enough to the side of the green to play back without hitting it back into the hole you've just played.  If the holes aren't quite parallel, but fan away from each other a bit, then it's not a problem, but it's hard to make the "fan" work for repeated back and forth holes.

Niall C

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2012, 09:36:57 AM »
When I visited the Renaissance course I was (pleasantly) surprised to see how conventional it looked in a lot of ways to the older courses you get over here (ie. non-modern courses), including a routing that had a number of parallel fairways especially in the first few holes. I appreciate that that may change with I think the first 3 holes becoming practice holes (?) and that Tom D may have had that in mind when he did his routing but I thought that quite refreshing rather than the archie feeling the need to drag you through the whole property via a circuitous route. Quite bold really.

Having said that, I note Ally refers to classic courses in the title and good courses in the post but I reckon Renaissance is already one and will become the other in due course.

Niall

Paul_Turner

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Re: Sardine routings on classic courses
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2012, 09:43:53 AM »
Ally

Woburn Dukes is a very good course with lots of this...hence T Doak's routing comment in The CG.

Back-forth stretches:  7&8,10-12,13-17  (hole order as members play, not tournament)

It does detract from the course since the first 6 holes do don't do this and are routed over the better terrain... then you get to the flatter portion and start going back and forth.  (Although there are excellent holes in this stretch)
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