[Dave Givnish]

Ed -

In answer to your original question on how to promote walking, especially at a private club in the US, I think that it takes a Golf Chair or a Board who is willing to accept the revenue loss from carts as a trade-off to attract new members who prioritize walking, and the patience to deal with the people who think that walkers cost the club revenue.  Of course, you need cooperative GCA as well - especially in AZ with all the real estate based courses.

We did this at Desert Forest over the last six or seven years.  The club started with 4 or 5 push carts and has well over 30 now ($6 fee).  Members can do what they want - carry, push cart, ride , or be on a 4-bagger.  Those get challenging as someone eventually gets stuck driving the cart while everyone else walks. Forecaddies and caddies are available in season.  I'm pretty sure that the ratio of walking rounds to riding rounds hasn't changed that much, but close to 50% of our new members walk. I see a lot guest play using push carts and 4-baggers. There was no financial hit.  Slightly lower cart revenue is easily offset by added dues revenue.

[Richard Crumb]

Golf is a walking sport.  Riding should either be for medical reasons or the rider should pay a major premium to ride, such as 2X the cost of a caddy.  If you've already walked 36 holes that day, you may take a cart without paying the premium.

[Garland Bayley]

Golf is a walking sport.  Riding should either be for medical reasons or the rider should pay a major premium to ride, such as 2X the cost of a caddy.  If you've already walked 36 holes that day, you may take a cart without paying the premium.

Way to throw the cartballers a Crumb, Richard!

[Jeff Shelman]

I think there are a lot of reasons why clubs should encourage walking. But the biggest reason, to me, is health.

Healthier members are often more active members. More active members use the club more than others and spend more money. And more active members are more engaged in the community of a club and are often less likely to quit a club.

I'm not so militant where I think that carts should be banned, etc. I believe people should be able to do what they want. I'm for encouraging walking.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have done an unscientific study and can prove to you that there is no way in hell that the members who carry their own bags spend more money at the club than the cartballers.  Hell, you got to pull teeth just to find one with a full size locker.

A club with 30,000 cart rounds per year would conservatively lead to the sale of 180,000 more beers than if everyone walked.  That is at least $200,000 in additional revenue.  

[Tim Martin]

Golf is a walking sport.  Riding should either be for medical reasons or the rider should pay a major premium to ride, such as 2X the cost of a caddy.  If you've already walked 36 holes that day, you may take a cart without paying the premium.

Way to throw the cartballers a Crumb, Richard!

I would be changing my user name often too with posts like that.

[Bruce Bearer]

I know of several private clubs that used to have solid caddie programs until the early 1980's.  I am a member of one and have talked to many members who would like to see a caddy program started up again.  The issue, of course, is cost of a caddy (say, $70) vs. cost of a cart (say, $20) as many have discussed on this post.

I'm wondering if anyone out there is aware of a club that partially "underwrites" a caddy program or does something creative to encourage caddies at the club.  Or does anyone have any creative ideas to re-start caddy programs?  I imagine the legal issues, human resources issues, etc., don't make it easy anymore.  

I'd love to hear any ideas out there to get caddy programs started up at more clubs.

[Jeff Shelman]

John,

I didn't say that walkers spend more money than riders. I said that healthy members spend more money than non-healthy members. I also didn't say annually, my take was that being the case over time.

Exercise in general leads to people being more active. When they are more active, they often aren't as obese and can get around better as they grow older. Many of those people are active longer and are physically able to play golf for more years and also may live longer.

[John Kavanaugh]

If I was more healthy I would play less golf.  It is and always has been a game for fat white guys who can skirt the day to day responsibilities of the downtrodden.

[Jason Connor]

Rumor has it that if Obama is re-elected Michelle will declare carts illegal -- or at least entirely solar powered, which will leave you stranded somewhere around the 4th hole anyway.

I agree with Kavanaugh (ouch) that carters spend way more, not just in carts, but I buy less on the course because I don't drink and I don't have a cup holder and a dinner tray like the carters.

[Garland Bayley]

I know of several private clubs that used to have solid caddie programs until the early 1980's.  I am a member of one and have talked to many members who would like to see a caddy program started up again.  The issue, of course, is cost of a caddy (say, $70) vs. cost of a cart (say, $20) as many have discussed on this post.

I'm wondering if anyone out there is aware of a club that partially "underwrites" a caddy program or does something creative to encourage caddies at the club.  Or does anyone have any creative ideas to re-start caddy programs?  I imagine the legal issues, human resources issues, etc., don't make it easy anymore.  

I'd love to hear any ideas out there to get caddy programs started up at more clubs.

Way to advocate that the club be the cost Bearer, Bruce!

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't understand why the same low paid hispanics can't carry bags for the same rate they earn with a rake.  This idea that caddies are somehow trained professionals is like saying the bosses son is a skilled manager.

[Jim_Kennedy]

......or be on a 4-bagger.  Those get challenging as someone eventually gets stuck driving the cart while everyone else walks. Forecaddies and caddies are available in season.  

I mentioned this earlier, but it sounds like a very good option for your club - offer a rate for a 4-bagger and a 'cabbie', i.e, one of the less experienced/cheaper caddies chauffeurs the cart around.


Bruce,
Some towns have summer job programs for kids, a couple I know of are managed through Park and Rec. depts. If a club truly wanted to start a program it could approach it's area P&D and offer a number of caddie jobs in partnership with them. Someone would have to take on the job of introducing/educating the kids to caddying, but that's not a significant roadblock.

[henrye]

Wayne, I agree, unheard of in Toronto.  Which clubs have caddies at all? National and Toronto? Anything else?

Rosedale has caddies as well.  You just have to call in advance to book one.  Mostly neighbourhood kids.  My club (Granite) will arrange them as well.

On walking in general, I think the single biggest factor is how walkable the course is.  I'm a member of 2 clubs.  The easier walking course does about 80% of their rounds with walkers.  Most of those walkers use a push cart/trolly.  The more difficult one does about 80% in carts.

Rumor has it that if Obama is re-elected Michelle will declare carts illegal --

Well then, you better get ready to walk, because Obama's re-election is all but a fait accompli.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Heres a UK view. We have 27 buggies, rarely do we get them all out and our MEMBERS get them for £8 whilst our VISITORS  get them for £20. Hardly any of our members take them they are WALKERS, so its never really a cost issue. They dont really do any course damage, though I am about to tag them and |Geo-Fence| protect certain areas, I reckon they make enough to pay for 2 greenkeepers, fuel is the biggest cost, I do have 8 Electric ones that are cheaper to run but they are a bit of a worry that they are not always properly charged and will break down. As an overview they are a decent earner and I think a balance is fine of walkers, riders and push cart users (we have 30 and charge £3). I would say Cart use is growing with the younger ones and people are living longer and playing too, within 20 years most clubs will have playing members that are 100 years old, these new knees, hips, stents and drugs have got a lot to answer, the biggest problem may be remembering which way the course goes.

[JMEvensky]

I'd love to hear any ideas out there to get caddy programs started up at more clubs.

Call the Western Golf Association and tell them what you're trying to do.They're very helpful and can probably give you some good ideas.They wrote the book on caddie programs.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I'd love to hear any ideas out there to get caddy programs started up at more clubs.

Call the Western Golf Association and tell them what you're trying to do.They're very helpful and can probably give you some good ideas.They wrote the book on caddie programs.

This would have absolutely no chance in the UK at 99% of golf courses.

[JMEvensky]

I'd love to hear any ideas out there to get caddy programs started up at more clubs.

Call the Western Golf Association and tell them what you're trying to do.They're very helpful and can probably give you some good ideas.They wrote the book on caddie programs.

This would have absolutely no chance in the UK at 99% of golf courses.

Nor at 99% of them in the States.But,if anyone can help with getting one started,the WGA can.

[Kalen Braley]

I hate to say it....but I agree with John again here.

...with all the other countless jobs in the country that now pay dirt wages, I'm surprised caddies has eluded this category.  If you could get one for $30, there would probably be a lot more uptake on them...and they could make extra on tips, just like your barista at Starbucks. 

Then again, the course would lose all that revenue because they'd have to pay at least $28 of that to the caddie at $7/hr. 

[John Kavanaugh]

No one looks at a gardener and hopes they too will own a garden someday.  We need to stop trying to mold caddies into our own image and just let them tote a bag.

[Kalen Braley]

I would think it wouldn't be hard to find people to do this work either.

Flip burgers or clean toilets for 8 hrs per day?  Or do a couple of loops while getting outside in the sun and enjoying the day walking around on a nice golf course.

[PCCraig]

I would think it wouldn't be hard to find people to do this work either.

Flip burgers or clean toilets for 8 hrs per day?  Or do a couple of loops while getting outside in the sun and enjoying the day walking around on a nice golf course.

If you're recruiting caddies from the ranks of lawnmowers and burger flippers, you're not going to do the caddie industry any favors. Those jobs are very low paying for a reason...the skill set of the employee is nearly non-existent. While carrying a bag isn't that difficult, a caddie should have at least some idea of what they are doing (how to speak properly, move at the correct times, how to act, watching golf balls, etc....basic stuff).

Have you ever had a bad caddy? I don't mean a guy who just carried the bag, but one who did almost everything incorrectly? It sucks. It detracts from the experience. That's what you'll get more often than not when you offer people who clean toilets similar pay to carry your bag.

Also, caddies are paid more than a janitor or burger flipper because it's far more physical. The act of caddying isn't easy on an adult body...ever see a 60 year old "pro jock?" Those guys carry two bags ~6 days a week, sometimes twice a day. Their bodies fall apart and they can barely move. Who would ask for that for $7/hour?

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

I think you make some good points, but once again, we are talking recreational golf here, not tournament golf.

I did have a bad caddy once and only once, at a very exclusive course with a guy who claimed to have been doing it for 30+ years.  While he kept up and raked the bunkers, he couldn't manage to keep his yapper shut for more than 1 minute and he was a negative kind of guy overall.

My best caddy experience was a college kid at Ballyneal who was not only Johhny on the spot, but never said more than hardly two words all day.  I gave him a big tip.

I think a $7 burger flipper could be easily trained in a 1 hour orientation session on how to at least get all the big things right on the golf course when it comes to proper etiquitte and caddy behavoir.

P.S. Cleaning toilets and picking veggies all day long isn't just as hard on the body?

[PCCraig]

I think a $7 burger flipper could be easily trained in a 1 hour orientation session on how to at least get all the big things right on the golf course when it comes to proper etiquitte and caddy behavoir.

Kalen,

Have you ever caddied for $ before?

[Kalen Braley]

I think a $7 burger flipper could be easily trained in a 1 hour orientation session on how to at least get all the big things right on the golf course when it comes to proper etiquitte and caddy behavoir.

Kalen,

Have you ever caddied for $ before?

Nope, but I have caddied for friends and been told a few times I was very helpful!!   

P.S.  I also stayed at a holiday express inn a few weeks ago. 

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