[Jason Thurman]

In another thread, Pat Mucci said "Centerline hazards are alien to many golfers..."

It struck me because it's so true. I have a friend who has said several times that "The fairway should always be a safe place to hit, and it should never have bunkers within it." Yet, ask him his favorite hole within an hour of his home, and he'll point you to a long hole with centerline hazards. He calls it his favorite tee shot.

Does the average weekend golfer know what he likes architecturally? Or does he just regurgitate what he's heard other people say and what he assumes to be principles of "good design" with little regard to how he ACTUALLY feels when playing and engaging with the architecture of a course?

[Mike Sweeney]

[Garland Bayley]

Who is the "average" player? If you are talking about the average frequent player, I think a lot of them know what they like. I think the most vocal of them are the old guys that have played long enough to hit it fairly short and straight. They are going to like tree lined fairways to keep their bomber opponents in check, and they are going to dislike center line bunkers because that is where they are going to play their ball to beat those upstart young bucks.

Besides, that's what tour courses on TV look like.

[Mac Plumart]

Jason...

I am of the mind that the answer to your question is...No.

And I think your post hits a lot of very, very key points.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

The centerline bunker feature is alien to many golfers because it converts an area of certainty, an area of security into an area of doubt and decision and most golfers aren't used to that, it's way outside of their comfort zone.

And, it doesn't matter if it's the average player or the average frequent player, centerline bunker complexes are disruptive and unsettling to them, ergo, they don't like them, mostly because they don't understand the big picture and think only in terms of "their" game.

[Ken Moum]

Pretty much all the "average" players I know have a very good handle on what they like....  or more propoerly what they don't like.

What they mostly don't know is why they hold those opinions.

The don't like it when "good" shots are punished (sort of like Luke Donald)
They don't like greens that are "unfair," which usually means greens with big contours.
They definitely don't like blind shots

And they almost all think a "good hole" is a hard hole.

Finally, they love trees on golf courses, and they obsess about turf conditions--never noticing that there is rarely any grass in a forest.

K

[Josh Tarble]

I saw a post somewhere else and it made me think...perhaps the average player THINKS they know what they like but that's just because they haven't played enough or seen enough of the truly interesting to really know.

For example, if you're always used to playing a tight tree-lined course, have never played anything with enough width for real strategic value, how would you know if you like it?  An if they've never played a true F&F course why would they want anything less than Augusta type conditioning?

[Terry Lavin]

Does the average weekend golfer know what he likes architecturally? Or does he just regurgitate what he's heard other people say and what he assumes to be principles of "good design" with little regard to how he ACTUALLY feels when playing and engaging with the architecture of a course?

Are you subliminally referring to raters as opposed to weekend golfers?  If so, you're on to something...

[Mac Plumart]

I saw a post somewhere else and it made me think...perhaps the average player THINKS they know what they like but that's just because they haven't played enough or seen enough of the truly interesting to really know.

For example, if you're always used to playing a tight tree-lined course, have never played anything with enough width for real strategic value, how would you know if you like it?  An if they've never played a true F&F course why would they want anything less than Augusta type conditioning?

BING...BING...BING...winner, winner, chicken dinner!!

Golf is a GREAT game even when played on a really bad golf course.  But when you play it on a truly great golf course the game elevates to an even higher level.

I love playing golf in Georgia.  Most courses in Georiga are not ideal, lots of trees, clay soil, etc.  Nevertheless, I LOVE it!  But playing golf in Mullen, NE is mind blowing.  Playing on the great courses of Long Island is something extra special.

[Jud_T]

I'm the average player and I know exactly what I like.

[Mac Plumart]

I'm the average player and I know exactly what I like.

You are NOT the average player.

[Jud_T]

I'm a 17 index which is pretty much the average player.  More well-traveled and well read perhaps.  A bit tongue-in-cheek I guess, but I think the average player knows exactly what he likes, it's just not what we'd prefer him to like.

[George Pazin]

You are NOT the average player.

But you feel comfortable speaking for him?

[Mac Plumart]

100%

[David Cronheim]

I saw a post somewhere else and it made me think...perhaps the average player THINKS they know what they like but that's just because they haven't played enough or seen enough of the truly interesting to really know.

For example, if you're always used to playing a tight tree-lined course, have never played anything with enough width for real strategic value, how would you know if you like it?  An if they've never played a true F&F course why would they want anything less than Augusta type conditioning?

I think this is 100% true. I certainly can recall visiting courses that changed my perception of what good architecture was. I didn't know what I liked because I hadn't played it. I remember thinking that about Yeaman's Hall when I first played it.

[Jud_T]

I would argue that you knew what you liked, it's just that what you liked changed over time.

[Dan Herrmann]

I think the #1 thing most guys look for is conditioning.  In fact, I'd bet that GCA is barely in their top 10.

[Greg Tallman]

I think it is more a matter of knowing what they like when they see it versus being able to explain what they like or even being able to understand why they like when they see it.

Much like a novice wine drinker... likes it, not sure why and would have a difficult time seeking out a similar tasting wine. With study and samplings their understanding and appreciation grows.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Of course they know what they like. They just dont like the same things this site might. In time with the right guidance they might change their opinion. Largely the average player, likes neat, tidy, water, green stripes and true greens.

[henrye]

Of course they know what they like. They just dont like the same things this site might. In time with the right guidance they might change their opinion. Largely the average player, likes neat, tidy, water, green stripes and true greens.

On the point:

They just dont like the same things this site might.

I would disagree.  As much as many here wouldn't like to admit it, the average duffer is as tranfixed by a good ocean view as most on this site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Guys,

Every golfer knows what they like.

The problem tends to be that what most golfers like is viewed from the narrow perspective of their individual games, unlike an architect's perspective which has to consider the broad spectrum of golfer's game's.

I would imagine that The average golfer tends to disfavor quirk, blindness and/or unexpected outcomes.

I'd also imagine that centerline bunkers are out of favor.

[Jason Thurman]

I think it is more a matter of knowing what they like when they see it versus being able to explain what they like or even being able to understand why they like when they see it.

Much like a novice wine drinker... likes it, not sure why and would have a difficult time seeking out a similar tasting wine. With study and samplings their understanding and appreciation grows.

I think that's a lot of what I see as well. All players can pick out holes they like and courses they like. But articulating the concepts they like is more difficult, and sometimes they're even dead wrong about those like my friend in the initial post.

I also think a lot of mid/high handicappers have a hard time feeling like a course that lets them score well can be legitimate. When they hit a drive down the middle that rolls out to 280 on a firm and fast course, they treat it like it's a novelty instead of a very good shot that was rewarded. We always talk about how players hate rub of the green in the modern era when it deals them a bad break, but a lot of players don't really enjoy the good breaks either.

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