West Bend hole 14 - Thanks Kye Goalby

[J_ Crisham]

Jack,

Langford did a major remodel of the Ross course at Skokie in 1939 when the club obtained new land to the SW where fabulous long par 3 is located and sold some land to the far north and its fair to say its now a RossFord with greens and bunkers more in line with the Langford style than Ross which Prichard did a magnificent job restoring. 

Mike,

I see the shape of your hole as straighter but somewhat similar to the 14th at Lawsonia without the major natural feature of the hill in the landing area.  As seen on the Lawsonia aerial Phil posted on Lawsonia 14 a pond was added (on the left and well out of play) and a bunker well short left probably near the front tee is today has been lost .  The direct line to the green is guarded by a tree and bunker on the inside of the slight dogleg right. 



Like a lot of Langford's fairway bunkers the bunker left was more for visual framing purposes than anything strategic.  Langford frequently used bunkers on the inside of fairways and used the raised nature of the earthworks to provide some measure of blindness.  I assume the new bunkers will be the characteristic Langford style and scale earthwork that is featured on the West Bend front nine and at Lawsonia.  If anything I might pull the left side bunker closer to the tee to visually frame and balance the look of the hole.   If the fairway bunker on the right is of the scale of the fw bunker on WB #1, 3, 6 and 9 that would be a pretty cool way to add some Langford features while improving the playing characterictics of the hole.  I see Prichard proposed moving the green a little but that doesn't seem to be in the budget at this time but some new greenside bunkering tied in to the approach angles would go a long as well in imho.  Are you going to add wispy fescue to the right where the trees used to be.  Could the fairway have been shifted more to the left? 

WB #1


WB #6

Dan,  Thanks for the Skokie history. As an aside, I played Kankakee Elks a couple weeks ago and was very impressed with the bones of the course. If ever I would like to see Donald Trump buy a course and infuse $ this would be top 100 if properly restored. Could be the Illinois version of Lawsonia. Hope all is well with you,  Jack

[Mike McGuire]

Dan

Yes the bunker an the right is going to be on the same scale as the front.

Talked about fescue over on the right as well.

[Dan Moore]

Thanks Mike for posting and good luck. I am very Interested in seeing the finished product.

Jack,

Agreed on Kankakee Elks.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30665.0.html

[Mike McGuire]

Is this better?



#14 by macadoo9, on Flickr

[Phil McDade]

Mike:

I've never been a big fan of bunkers on the far side of lakes on a diagonal carry -- I figure if the player has enough moxie/courage to play over the lake (assuming the carry isn't a trifle) they should be rewarded in some fashion. That's why I liked the initial iteration of this, in which the fairway was expanded behind the lake, with adequate room between the lake and the further-up bunker that might stymie the grip-and-rip crowd. And Langford, from what I've seen, almost always allowed for open green fronts for correctly placed drives. This new scheme looks like you'd almost have to carry the new bunker left, and on to the expanded fairway beyond it, to get an open look at the green. That's something I'm just not sure falls within the Langford design ethos.

(Langford to me is really about these three fundamental things: bold features/hazards that, taken on successfully, reward the golfer; width to allow the lesser golfer a way to "tack around" the bold hazards without undue penalty; and hole variations -- and variations within holes, depending on how you attacked them -- that forced the golfer into hitting a variety of shots during the round. Thus, you often see in his courses: the short par 4 that results in players hitting wedges into greens after less-than-driver off the tee; the long par 4s and short par 5s that results in the golfer hitting long approaches into greens; great variety in his par 3s.)

I worry this new look makes the hole play a bit too one-dimensionally?

[RJ_Daley]

Guys, the above is a very rough approximation and attempt to describe what I think would make this L&M-esque.

The dark green represents the humps of a gullwing bunker, and light green the cuppish bottom of the grass bunkers, with the two on the right en echlon, out about 200 nearest pond, and second 240.  I'd scrap the tree that remains out there.

I'd put another grass bunker on left about 170-190 out on the left, again with the dark green representing the hump and light green the grass depression making it a grass bunker, just like the many other ones on the real L&M 9 hole front side.   I also would get rid of that one tree on the far left approach to the green.  

Obviously, the light area represents the mowing line of FW.

The dark green represent the bunker slope of the new bunker that Mike says is to be lowered 3ft, and I'd make that bunker sand flatish.  I'd make the green a fall-away with higher tier front and a slight slope to a back right tier.  That would be similar to #3 (I think on the front side at WB, and similar to the nature of the two tiers of the 6th at Lawsonia, (but not that dramatic of a slope to backtier - more subtle)

I Hope my ham handed sketch in Paint doesn't look too stupid...  

[RJ_Daley]

My last attempt to explain my idea. I believe that the actual line of play comes from tees sited further behind and to the right of where this photo lines up from.  And that gull wing single grass bunker on the left does not look like that as it would be more gullwing like.  The one I drew looks too clunky.  The real one would have a more Nikeswoosh look to it.  Now back to college football!  

[Mike McGuire]

RJ

The bunkers on the front were designed with sand in them. This was never completed and in my opinion the course is worse off for it. Lawsonia has the mix about right but I would put sand in every one if I could. Green side too.

The course just looks unfinished without sand in the bunkers.

Putting sand in these new bunkers will be a dramatic look and, hopefully, lead to restoring the front side bunkers.

[Mike McGuire]

Day 1 of shaping




IMG_3343.JPG by macadoo9, on Flickr

[PCCraig]

Looking good Mike, thanks for the pictures. So I guess Ron P. wasn't that impressed with our thoughts?

Please keep us updated on the progress. This will be really interesting to watch.

[Mike McGuire]

Day 2



14 on sep 11 by macadoo9, on Flickr

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14 right fairway binker by macadoo9, on Flickr

[Mike McGuire]

Halfway through day 3


IMG_3378.JPG by macadoo9, on Flickr

[Mike McGuire]

After Day 5 everything is shaped.



14 day 5 by macadoo9, on Flickr

[Phil McDade]

Mike:

Looks really solid. What's the width between the bunkers left and right? From the picture, based on the player/cart, it looks sufficiently wide.

RJ: This has a Langford/Moreau look, wouldn't you agree? And I'd argue the L/M strategic elements are in play here....

[Mike McGuire]

Phil its around 45 yards between those two bunkers. And they are more offset than it looks in the images. The left bunker is much closer to the tee.

Right now its 344 to the middle of the green from the back tee. It will be tempting for big hitters to have a go. The green side bunker is wide on the left so a ball barely in the sand will have a really long bunker shot, potentially to a tight pin.

Working on a new back tee.

[RJ_Daley]

Sorry Phil, from this photos, I wouldn't agree.  But, they are photos, and it's not really fair to make too definite of a statement.  But, the left side bunker doesn't look right to me.  The first bunker on the right might be OK, if it is on a proper diagonal, and has a decent gullwing hump.  It would be nice if it had a high grass front slope to a flatish sand base and a backside slope on the other side of the hump with a moderately graded out down slope away from the hump giving the ball that properly clears it, a bit of a forward boost.  I can't be too certain about the greenside complex yet. 

[Mike McGuire]

Latest look. Do you like it?


IMG_3527.JPG by macadoo9, on Flickr

Up Close - Right Fairway bunker


IMG_3529.JPG by macadoo9, on Flickr

[Phil McDade]

Mike:

Well done -- looks solid. How much room is there between the two bunkers right? Is trying to play between them off the tee a reasonable play?

[Mike McGuire]

Mike:

Well done -- looks solid. How much room is there between the two bunkers right? Is trying to play between them off the tee a reasonable play?

Phil-

Thats a great question because the bomber is going to be tempted / forced  to hit driver.

I dont know the number for sure, but its about 40 yards. Problem for the bomber as I see it if you carry the fairway bunker and you end up just in the green side  bunker you are facing a long bunker shot. If you dont carry the bunker it an awkward 70 yard shot.

[Dan Moore]

Better than a 1,000 words I think.  A weak, visually impaired hole has been vastly improved.  I was a little unsure about the shape of the left hand bunker but it looks fine.  Now get rid of that tree on the left. 

Latest look. Do you like it?


IMG_3527.JPG by macadoo9, on Flickr

Up Close - Right Fairway bunker


IMG_3529.JPG by macadoo9, on Flickr

[PCCraig]

Looks like a dramatic improvement when you see the before and after photos!

[RJ_Daley]

I'll definitely agree with "vastly improved".  I still would pick a few nits.  I would like to see the left side of the first bunker up the right hand side, about 2-3ft more hump on the grass slope. Maybe the architect is considering there will be sand build up over the years.  The new photos show a good diagonal angle I have been speaking of.  I like the perspective of the newest photo from just left of the first bunker because it suggests a neat uphill shot that must carry the widest portion on the left side of the greenside bunker,  which looks very good.  The flag seems like you only see the top of it from there.  I don't know how the flag and green surface is seen from a nice shot over the first right side bunker, but suspect there is still an element of surface over the hump and up the hill that is a great vague - almost skyline effect.  So that approach seems very much like L&M that I have seen.  The flat sand bunker with grass slope matches very well with the other L&M side, IMO.  I'm still a bit sketchy on the left side FW bunker.  I'm thinking that it is longer than appears from the photo taker's perspective.  I guess I just think the angle of it, could be slightly more in balance with the right side bunkers...

I do feel your excitement, Mike, and your enthusiasm for the project and your input over the years has got to be a real asset for the club.

[David Harshbarger]

On another current thread there's discussion of the Line of Instinct, and the work here really talks that.

The Line of Instinct is chopped up by the lake and the two bunkers, but, it's not clear that you still couldn't take it by dropping a drive over the fairway bunker.  It's also not clear that would be a good plan even if executed properly, as the green is left at an angle protected by the green side bunker.

There are a few potential lines of charm.  The long hitter can challenge the left side fairway bunker and the tree line to get the better angle into the green.  Or, the safe shot short of the left bunker is available. in both, the green opens up and you can play in closer to the angle of the green, with the shorter option losing visibility and distance, and the green side bunker taken more off the line.

If I'm reading the Prichard drawing, coming in from the left brings a green side mound into play.  That would be a big negative to play off the line of instinct. Little hillocks like that are brutal.

Looks great.  Thanks for sharing.

[Mike McGuire]

Green side mounding removed.

[Dan Moore]

Mike,

Congrats.  A vast improvement as I noted.  What has the membership reaction been and how hard was it to convince them to remove all the trees?  A photo from the landing area into the green would be interesting to see.