[Jeff_Mingay]

I have a renovation plan on the table in which there's a proposal to build an alternate green for a par 4 hole.

Which are the world's best 'alternate green' holes? The 8th and 9th at Pine Valley immediately come to mind. But, do those alternate greens actually make for better holes than the original greens presented, in your opinion?

Again, how 'bout others?

[Ally Mcintosh]

First one that comes to my mind is the 7th at Ballybunion... But I've never played to the alternate green (which I think was put in by Simpson because of erosion on the original green, since replaced)....

There are a large number of alternate greens in Japan butI don't know good examples...

[Mark Saltzman]

Jeff, 5 at Fazio's Sand Ridge is probably the best I've seen.

[PCCraig]

Jeff,

The 6th hole at the somewhat recently built Golf Club at Harbor Shores (Benton Harbor, MI) has an alternate green which lesser players can use instead of playing to a longer green with a forced carry over a ravine.

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, What is the justification for the plan? Wear pattern is the only one I can think of that holds water.

I'm agin alternate greens because someone will always feel let down that they aren't playing the other one. Just my $0.02

[A.G._Crockett]

#6 at True Blue (Strantz) has alternate greens.  Which green is in play has little bearing on the tee shot; the hole plays a bit shorter to the left green, but the right green is a bit bigger and a miss is a bit more forgiving.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Renegade at Desert Mt has a few holes with two greens, but it was designed that way so it may not be what you are looking for.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jeff,

The 10th at Riviera has an alternate green to the right, which I'm sure is to relieve pressure on the original green, which is pretty small. However, like Adam said, I'de feel short-changed playing such a revered course & iconic hole and not get to play the Thomas green. When I was in Australia, a number of the sandbelt courses have 19th holes and routinely take par-3 holes out-of-play. Kingston Heath uses their 19th hole and takes the famed 10th & 15th out-of-play (thankfully not the day I played!), which again, would irritate me as a paying customer, no offense to the excellent 19th hole built by Mike Clayton.

TK

[Bill_McBride]

A long par 4 on the back nine, maybe #12, at Pine Barrens / World Woods has an upper green way up yo the right, heavily bunkered, and a lower green a bit longer.  Not sure why, I reckon the high green makes the hole play quite a bit harder.

Not sure anyone mentioned Pacific Dunes #9, which also has an upper and lower green, also not sure why.

[Howard Riefs]

Fazio also built another hole with an alternate green as at World Woods, Pine Barrens. The 12th hole plays as the #1 handicap hole.

The right green is devilish, elevated 15+ feet, fronted by a waste bunker and severely undulating. When the left green is in play, it's a longer hole but the green is not nearly as interesting; seems like more of an after-thought.

http://www.worldwoods.com/golf/pine-barrens/course-tour

[Sean_A]

Sherwood Forest's 7th has an alternate green par 3.  Both strike me as equally good - remember to scroll.


Sutton Coldfield has a winter green for its par 3 ninth - I think a better hole than the proper green.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Par-3 seventh hole at the Rosapenna OTM course is another but possibly the Doak / Iverson green (left) has just been built to replace the Hackett / Ruddy green (right - in play)... Although I'd imagine them keeping both as options... Nick Norton on the tee:


Rosapenna OT 7th Tee shot Nick 16th Sept 2011 by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr

[Matthew Petersen]

Jeff,

The 10th at Riviera has an alternate green to the right, which I'm sure is to relieve pressure on the original green, which is pretty small. However, like Adam said, I'de feel short-changed playing such a revered course & iconic hole and not get to play the Thomas green. When I was in Australia, a number of the sandbelt courses have 19th holes and routinely take par-3 holes out-of-play. Kingston Heath uses their 19th hole and takes the famed 10th & 15th out-of-play (thankfully not the day I played!), which again, would irritate me as a paying customer, no offense to the excellent 19th hole built by Mike Clayton.

TK

There are actually several such alternate greens at Riviera. I think both par 3s on the back also have them.

Original designs with two greens are much less of a problem. Over many repeated plays a player might ultimately find he favors one or the other for some reason, but in most situations both of the greens fit and no player would feel cheated by having to play to one. It seems it would be much harder to pull that off on a course where a green has existed for some time. At the very least, you would hope it is something fitting with the hole and played often enough that it doesn't get a stigma of just being the green you have to use because the better one can't be.

[Joe_Tucholski]

I'm surprised it took this long to mention 9 at Pacific Dunes...the only hole with an alternate green I've played.

Edit:
Thanks Jay missed that.

[Jay Cox]

Not sure anyone mentioned Pacific Dunes #9, which also has an upper and lower green, also not sure why.

I'm sure that someone with first-hand knowledge will weigh on this eventually, but my understanding is that #9 at Pac Dunes is a product competing arguments for two different routings, and a decision simply to build both.  Personally, I like #9 better played to the low (left) green and #10 played better from the low (left) tee, but I think the majority would disagree with respect to #10 and a sizeable minority would disagree with repsect to #9.

Even though I'd much rather played the low/low combination for one round, I'm glad RGD built both.  The difference in quality is not so great as to overwhelm the benefit of variety.

[Tommy Williamsen]

As I recall Haig Point has two greens for two of its par threes.  One relatively easy and another more difficult.  I kinda like that concept.  Both greens don'g necessarily have to have the same difficulty.

[John Ezekowitz]

I must say I was disappointed with the two green set-up on Pac Dunes when I played it. We played to the upper green both times, and both times I hit solid drives that were pulled a bit. Both times I would have had exceedingly simple 45-55 yard pitches to the lower green. The hole could be completely different in a different wind condition, but the way I played it, I can't really see the strategic merit of the lower green (other than to give more options for the 10th tees).

[Tom_Doak]

I must say I was disappointed with the two green set-up on Pac Dunes when I played it. We played to the upper green both times, and both times I hit solid drives that were pulled a bit. Both times I would have had exceedingly simple 45-55 yard pitches to the lower green. The hole could be completely different in a different wind condition, but the way I played it, I can't really see the strategic merit of the lower green (other than to give more options for the 10th tees).

Well, you played it downwind.  Into the wind that hole is a beast to either green.

Jay has the story of how those two greens came to be pretty well correct.  Funnily enough, though, the reason I came to really like having both was because it made the tee shot on the hole so different.  When the hole is up on top, you want to hit a short, left-to-right shot so you can stay up top for your approach instead of having a blind one from down below ... and when the hole is on the lower green, you want to hit a big slinging hook to see how close you can get.  And that lower green is pretty tough, there aren't many simple pitches to it.

[Ben Kodadek]

I've probably played 25 rounds at Pine Barrens.  I've never seen the left green used.

The same goes for Deacon's Lodge 7th hole.  About the same number of plays, never seen the right green in play. 

[Guy Nicholson]

Jeff, there's 17 at Lakeview in Toronto. (The alternate is definitely inferior.) Doesn't Devil's Pulpit have an alternate green as well? Or maybe an entire alternate hole?

[JMEvensky]

One of the Greenbrier courses has a 4-par with alternate greens but I can't remember which hole or which course.

[Matthew Essig]

I must say I was disappointed with the two green set-up on Pac Dunes when I played it. We played to the upper green both times, and both times I hit solid drives that were pulled a bit. Both times I would have had exceedingly simple 45-55 yard pitches to the lower green. The hole could be completely different in a different wind condition, but the way I played it, I can't really see the strategic merit of the lower green (other than to give more options for the 10th tees).

Well, you played it downwind.  Into the wind that hole is a beast to either green.

I would second that. Especially when you add hail and stinging rain for the tee shot.............

[Mike Boehm]

Pontiac Country Club (Waterford Michigan) has alternate greens on the 2nd hole (short par 3 - probably 135 to the right and 145 to the left), the 350-375 yard par 4 6th (short hole is straightaway to severly slping green, longer hole is a dogleg right and a more difficult hole), and the par 3 8th (175ish to slightly elevated and narrow left green, 130ish to large green on right).  Makes a big difference on 8, and also to 6, which hole is utilized.  Pretty much the same hole on #2 either way, regardless of green.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeff, there's 17 at Lakeview in Toronto. (The alternate is definitely inferior.) Doesn't Devil's Pulpit have an alternate green as well? Or maybe an entire alternate hole?

Guy,

I think it's the 11th at Devil's Pulpit, with the alternate green... but, you may be right, it's more of an alternate hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

Jeff, there's 17 at Lakeview in Toronto. (The alternate is definitely inferior.) Doesn't Devil's Pulpit have an alternate green as well? Or maybe an entire alternate hole?

Guy,

I think it's the 11th at Devil's Pulpit, with the alternate green... but, you may be right, it's more of an alternate hole.

It's an entire alternate hole.

17 at Lakeview is a lesson in how not to build an alternate green.

In my opinion, when one is so vastly superior to the other that a person playing is hoping that one green is used over the other, it's not a good alternate.

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