[Grant Saunders]

I had the pleasure the other day of playing the recently redeveloped Harewood Golf Course in Christchurch NZ.

It was a shotgun start event which also featured noted GCAer Leo Barber in he same field but off a different tee.

During the course of our round, we encountered each other several times when tees and greens from different holes are in close proximity. Also, playing down fairways where another hole runs alongside.

While this particular feature may have been exaggerated by my driving inaccuracies, it was noted after the round how it was a positive thing while playing the course. I doubt it was an intentional element in the redesign but rather a function of a relatively compact piece of land.

Having played several layouts where the goal of creating an experience of feeling that you and your group are playing the course in isolation, I cant help but think I enjoyed the feeling of sharing the course more. Seeing previews of parts of the course you have yet to play can also  generate anticipation in the player (or trepidation depending on what you spy).

What are some good examples of great courses with "sociable routing's"?

[Michael Robin]

One of my favorite things about the renovation to LACC North and the recovery of the routing, is how social it makes the front side. Actually, include 17 Tee in that too. The intersection of the 2nd Green, 8th Green, 3rd Tee and 17th Tee creates a great opportunity to engage others.

[Tom_Doak]

Grant:

This is a feature I enjoy, too.

I think our new course in New Zealand will be a good example, whenever they finally let us start shaping it in earnest.  The second tee is near the ninth; the fifth tee shot crosses over the third, about 100 yards off each tee; the seventh tee is really close to the eighteenth fairway; the eighth tee gives you a good look at players putting out on hole nine; you cross over behind #18 green en route to #10 tee; and the eleventh hole plays around behind the sixteenth green.

Other courses which are particularly good at this would include The Old Course and Cypress Point.

[Leo Barber]

Grant

As discussed, I have drastically altered my view on this over the years.  I think my initial thoughts were bourne out of very mundane up and back pine tree lined routes where one hole was feeling exactly like the next.  The cool thing at Harewood was that (and I think I described it as "wheres wally") the routing was really unpredictable and your group was just randomly coming across ours.  Paraparaumu Beach is also a really good example of this feature as its routing twists and snakes around itself and the nines often come in close proximity of each other on several occasions during the round.  The unobstructed vistas also build anticipation.  As well as greens close by or fairways I also really like shared tees ie 5/8, 7/15, 12/18 at PB.   

A sociable routing can also make for great fun and banter between a bunch of regular golfing fellas who may be spread out over a few groups and not always off the same starting tees.  The more I discuss and think about this the more actually I realise just how much I now enjoy this feature.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like it a lot as well...

But only when it's abundantly clear where you are supposed to be going. I find it frustrating with a routing if you reach a crossover and have to double-take as to where to go next... And not being a fan of excessive signage, I feel this should be part of the natural flow...

[Carl Johnson]

There must be a lot of them out there.  My home club, Carolina GC (Ross/Spence), in Charlotte, has lots of proximity.  I hadn't thought about it much until a first-time guest of mine several years ago said how neat it was that I continued to see friends all over the course.  On the other hand, we do have several places where, for visitors, the next tee is not obvious, and zero signage.  On the other hand, the proximity makes it easy for members to help direct confused visitors.

[Guy Nicholson]

“If possible, it is well to have the second hole come back to the club, so that tie matches may, for the first three holes, never be over the distance of one fairway from home. Also, if one is late in arriving, one may pick up friends at the third tee.”

George Thomas re Rivera ... How much more sociable can you get than that?

[Mark McKeever]

Kennet Square is a fine example of this feature.  They have an area where there are 3 greens immediately next to eachother which creates a very social atmosphere right in the middle of the property. 

Mark

[Kalen Braley]

Missoula Country Club is also a terrific example of this.  There were 3 different spots on the course...other than near the pro shop... where the course comes together with tees and greens collected in one spot.

[Bill_Yates]

With thousands of trees gone, Oakmont has got more sociable than it was, and I remember that there were plenty of conversations and hand signals in the past between SWAT groups.

[Matthew Rose]

My home muni, Janesville Riverside, was great for this.... even just from the clubhouse, you could see #1 tee, #6 tee, #10 tee, #12 tee, #9 green, #11 green, #12 green and #18 green. There were many other points on the course where the walks from green to tee often crossed over others.

[mike_beene]

There is a fine line between sociable and population control. Some days I enjoy a tight routing but I have been hit before as well and get a little jumpy at times.I wonder if you could even build my home course as tight in this day and age.

[Ken Moum]

Most of Scotland fells like that to me.

Especially St. Andrews.  There's a spot on Jubilee, IIRC, where I looked over to TOC and could see about five flagsticks lined up.

And on the The Old Course, there was a point on the inward nine, 13 I think, where our group and one coming out were on the green at the same time.  Something like 18 people, including golfers, caddies and walkers were together at once.

After seeing how "collegial" courses like those were, and how intimately Brora, and Berwick, were with the town, I changed my opinions about what kind of courses I longed for.  I once thought i wanted the the seclusion described by people who say, "It felt like no one else was out there," but in fact I like seeing the golfers and townspeople more than I like seclusion.

K

[David Stewart]

I think Ross was an expert at this. In many of his designs he often has two or three green sites converge in one area. In fact, you could actually play many different routings if you so chose. My home course (Miami Valley in Dayton) is a Ross and I have done this numerous times to get around a slow moving group or to allow myself time to get back to the clubhouse if darkness was setting in. Other examples I thought of were No. 2 (2, 7, and 16 greens, 3 and 5 greens, and 12 and 14 greens), Mid-Pines (1 and 5 greens and 6 and 16 greens), Southern Pines (1 and 17 greens, 3 and 15 greens, 10 green and 14 green), and Broadmoor (2 and 5 greens, 11 and 15 greens, and 12, 18, and 9 greens, which all return to the clubhouse).

[Mark Johnson]

For those of us fighting a hook, almost any hole can turn into a social one.


That said, i am not a fan of shared tee boxes.    Its contribution to slow play outweighs any social benefit for me.

[RJ_Daley]

In pre 70s courses, I think the sociablity of proximity between FWs tees greens etc. was more common.  I think modern GCA got too over-conscious of liability, along with someone decided how cool it was to feel like your group are the only ones on the course.  Too many old courses that had that sociability proximity factor were messed up with row tree plantings.  One example of such that leaps into my mind is Mike Young's home club, Athens CC. 

One of the great features of links like courses, like TOC, and the course Doak is doing at DR is looking over much of the entire field of play and seeing where your buddies are, maybe catching a glimpse of how they are playing or reacting (wild gesticulations, or chasing the beer cart lady  ) 

Maybe the sociability factor isn't so desired for the serious toon-a-mint atmosphere.  But then again they always talk about the roars heard across the property at ANGC.

My home course built by Ed Lawrence Packard in '58-9 is very sociable.   

[Wayne_Kozun]

My home course has this quite a bit - especially one spot where the 11th green, 15th green, 12th tee and 16th tee intersect - and it is also very close to the "Oasis" halfway house. 

[Tom_Doak]

In pre 70s courses, I think the sociablity of proximity between FWs tees greens etc. was more common.  I think modern GCA got too over-conscious of liability, along with someone decided how cool it was to feel like your group are the only ones on the course. 

Dick:

No question that this is right.  At Biarritz the other day, I was driving it into adjacent fairways frequently, and noted to my playing companions that on a modern course we would probably be looking for my ball in the hay instead, because the holes would be spaced much further apart for liability reasons.

The "can't see any other hole while you are playing" cliche gained force with Pine Valley's ascendancy to #1 in the rankings.  I don't remember reading much about that aspect of Pine Valley (or any other course) in the old architecture books from the 1970's ... I'm away from The World Atlas of Golf now or I'd double check on that.

[Bill_McBride]

In pre 70s courses, I think the sociablity of proximity between FWs tees greens etc. was more common.  I think modern GCA got too over-conscious of liability, along with someone decided how cool it was to feel like your group are the only ones on the course.  Too many old courses that had that sociability proximity factor were messed up with row tree plantings.  One example of such that leaps into my mind is Mike Young's home club, Athens CC. 

One of the great features of links like courses, like TOC, and the course Doak is doing at DR is looking over much of the entire field of play and seeing where your buddies are, maybe catching a glimpse of how they are playing or reacting (wild gesticulations, or chasing the beer cart lady  ) 

Maybe the sociability factor isn't so desired for the serious toon-a-mint atmosphere.  But then again they always talk about the roars heard across the property at ANGC.

My home course built by Ed Lawrence Packard in '58-9 is very sociable.   

Dick, IIRC, aren't there four greens within about 80 yards of each other at Athens, there by the snack shack?

[RJ_Daley]

Yup Bill that is true.  I think the thing that left a strong impression on me, and probably skews my memory is those row of trees nearly like a fence between a few other of those holes.  IIRC, Mike Y isn't a big fan of them either.   

[Grant Saunders]

Couple of mentions for The Old Course.  I suppose double greens have a nice way of generating some forced sharing of the same general area of a course.

A question for the architects: If safety wasnt such an issue (perceived or real), is it a feature that you would utilise more than current restrictions enable?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Safety between hole corridors should be a given that isn't compromised just so that you can get up close and personal with the group behind. No doubt these widths have widened over the years with respect to equipment changes and increased likelihood of litigation but you don't route a course to deliberately put adjoining fairways close together if you can help it, even if architects views differ on the importance of safety buffers and the distances these need to be.

Therefore the "sociable routing" aspect (for me) is much, much more to do with meeting people at crossovers, leaving views open (and not screened / framed) so that you get glimpses of other golfers dotted around the course, green sites and tee-sites being placed within close proximity of each other (at safe distances) and as much green and tee activity as possible (again safely) around the clubhouse.

Wanting to be able to hit on to another fairway just to shake hands with your best mate is a non-starter for discussion I would have thought.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I know safety is all the rage with modern designers, but do you think some archies are on overkill with the concept?  Is it being used to make cash on "renovations"?  I know health and safety gets the blame for a ton of stuff because folks don't actually look into things to see for themselves what the true story is.  H&S is an easy bogey man to blame.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

I know safety is all the rage with modern designers, but do you think some archies are on overkill with the concept?  Is it being used to make cash on "renovations"?  I know health and safety gets the blame for a ton of stuff because folks don't actually look into things to see for themselves what the true story is.  H&S is an easy bogey man to blame.

Ciao

Sean,

I'm all for H&S and responsibility in golf course design. But I do believe that you can't narrow it down to standard numbers. People have to make individual calls and yes I do believe it can be an easy bogeyman.

My point wasn't really about whether older courses can be considered "Safe". A lot of the classics with seemingly unsafe features by modern standards have held up pretty well as far as I can see.

I was trying to say that in the context of the topic, having centrelines of fairways 75 yards or 60 yards from each other is a bit of a red herring. We don't deliberately hit on to other fairways just to have a chat. "Sociable routings" have much more to do with the other aspects I stated. Unless one opines that meeting people on the course is more important than routing multiple crossing fairways, ala the original Prestwick routing - clearly unsafe. That must have been a pretty sociable routing.

[David Whitmer]

There are some people (and I'm not one of them) who prefer the opposite. I believe Fred Jones told Pete Dye he did not want any parallel holes or holes close to each other at The Golf Club. I think he said something like, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I like my friends but don't want to talk to them or see them on the golf course."

I guess when you have the amount of land Pete had to work with there, that option is available.

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