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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« on: August 24, 2012, 12:19:28 AM »
In the Erin Hills thread, Nigel Islam posted this:

What is the consensus of Hurzdan and Fry? What are their top courses? Calusa Pines? Living where I do I actually have played several of their courses, but I do not have a very good handle on their style/tendencies yet (Partly because the courses are all daily fee courses)

I think it's worthy of its own topic and something I've wondered about myself. I've played several Hurdzan and Fry designs, and I also don't have a great handle on their tendencies or style. A few things I have seen:

1. Tiered greens with distinct pin placement areas and ridges separating them.
2. A tendency toward big holes, particularly long par 5s.
3. What would appear to be low construction costs without a ton of dirt movement, but not particularly natural looking either.
4. Good value (aside from Erin Hills, the Hurdzan/Fry courses I'm familiar with are relatively inexpensive and also relatively decent if unspectacular).

What thoughts do others have on their work?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 06:57:02 AM »
I heard recently that they were splitting up as professional team, but remaining good friends. Insights?

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2012, 07:58:19 AM »
I heard recently that they were splitting up as professional team, but remaining good friends. Insights?

Cheers,
Kris 8)

Some details in a previous thread on this.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53002.0.html
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Dan Delaney 🐮

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2012, 08:00:21 AM »
Jason -

I've always held the impression that their course have width, but more in terms of forgivable width than anything overtly strategic.  With one possible exception (Fieldstone), I've never really worried too much about playing into greens from specific areas.  So in that sense I've found them imminently playable for a wide range of players - and wouldn't hesitate to bring my favorite foursome (0, 5, 18 and 22) out to any of their courses for that reason. 

In tournament play, I find average scoring skews lower but the leaders generally don't get too far away from the field.  Most can keep in play and have difficulty around the greens - I agree with your assessment - they seem to really like greens within a green.

My H/F frame of reference - Pennsylvania: Wrendale (now Hershey I think), Militia Hill, Glenmaura, Sunnybrook, Jericho; New Jersey: Sand Barrens, Neshanic Valley; Delaware: Fieldstone

-DD

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2012, 09:54:27 AM »
Yeah other than Erin Hills I have only played Blue Ash, Seneca in Louisville, & Old English off I-64. Maybe that is what their calling card is. That they design courses that just seem to have any connection whatsoever. The English, IN course would certainly qualify in my all time top 5 worst. The design is not horrible, but the execution of the design is as well as the fact that anyone would ever build a golf course in a flood plain so severe they had to move the whole town.

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs New
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2012, 02:01:34 PM »
I have very little experience with Hurdzan/Fry, but everyone needs to see Devil's Paintbrush in Canada. Along with Pulpit, it has to be one of the best two-course clubs in the world.   Overall, from what I gather, there are two or even three levels of golf course from Hurdzan/Fry. I think they are very much capable of doing great stuff, but I would think it depends on their budget and the property they have to work with. They could probably be more selective, but I think they take work regardless. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 09:32:26 PM by Frank M »

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2012, 02:52:14 PM »
I agree with Frank that Paintbrush and Pulpit make an awesome 1-2 punch and Paintbrush is an absolutely wonderful course.  Pulpit is very manufactured and isn't for everyone, but I would be shocked if Paintbrush wasn't one of their top three courses.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2012, 03:10:18 PM »
I've played a handful of H/F courses in the Delaware Valley.  And I have enjoyed every one of them.

Here's a thread on the public Pilgrim's Oak, a very affordable layout in Peach Bottom, PA:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47050.0.html

and here is the entire photo album:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/pilgrimsoak/

Militia Hill is the modern layout at Philadelphia Cricket Club.  I think it is a very nice compliment to their classic Wissahickon course.

Here's a thread on Militia Hill:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50230.0.html

and here is the photo album:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/militiahill/

Out near Hershey, PA is Hershey Links (formerly the private Wren Dale).  Has a resort pricing at times, but still good solid layout.

Here's a thread that included Hershey Links:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41106.0.html

and here is the photo album:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/hershey_links/

I've not yet done a photo tour thread on Sand Barrens, down by the Jersey shore, but it is also solid.  With 27 holes.

Here is the SB photo album:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/sandbarrens/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2012, 06:40:12 PM »
Yeah other than Erin Hills I have only played Blue Ash, Seneca in Louisville, & Old English off I-64. Maybe that is what their calling card is. That they design courses that just seem to have any connection whatsoever. The English, IN course would certainly qualify in my all time top 5 worst. The design is not horrible, but the execution of the design is as well as the fact that anyone would ever build a golf course in a flood plain so severe they had to move the whole town.

I believe that H & F designed Olde English GC for free after the town was moved.


Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2012, 07:02:28 PM »
For those interested, a review of Devil's Paintbrush (now no. 1 Golfweek Canadian Modern): http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/02/devils-paintbrush-golf-course-review.html

And, a review of Devils Pulpit: http://nowonthetee.blogspot.ca/2009/12/devils-pulpit-gc.html?m=1
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 08:59:30 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2012, 07:17:26 PM »
I have experience with Neshanic, Fieldstone and Militia Hill.  
Neshanic is a reasonably good piece of land, picturesque, routed across a rolling piece of former farmland.  27 holes, Meadow/Lake/Ridge.
In contrast to Militia Hill or Fieldstone yes, I do think they have designed this (NV) for public play, which is fine--that is the audience, after all.  You won't find the large features here that you do at the other two places, and you won't find the high degree of penality as at Fieldstone.  There is some use of fescue, pretty restrained use of wetlands as hazards and it's strategic enough for most players; I don't want to go as far and say it's 'dumbed down', because it's not, I think it's a good golf experience for the Somerset County public market, a high-end county course that is far better than many of the other county-owned layouts in NJ.      
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 02:15:58 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2012, 02:09:37 PM »
Yeah other than Erin Hills I have only played Blue Ash, Seneca in Louisville, & Old English off I-64. Maybe that is what their calling card is. That they design courses that just seem to have any connection whatsoever. The English, IN course would certainly qualify in my all time top 5 worst. The design is not horrible, but the execution of the design is as well as the fact that anyone would ever build a golf course in a flood plain so severe they had to move the whole town.

I believe that H & F designed Olde English GC for free after the town was moved.



That is 100% correct. I liked some of the holes, but when I got to 17 there was no 17. All excavated and dug up. Walkability factor is low.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2012, 10:40:42 PM »
Not a ton of play on here. But they are well respected firm.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2012, 11:00:20 AM »
I have played a fair bit at Hershey Links, formerly Wren Dale, and generally think it's a good course. With a few foot bridges (I'm thinking of some along the line of #8 at Lancaster) across the rather deep and steep valley/gorge the course would be very walkable. Unfortunately there currently are a decent number of very steep down and ups to get to the other side that make it a difficult walk.

Architecturally, it has a lot of shaping that is pretty cool looking, but much of it does not appear be natural looking (a good example of this is the green on the par 5 16th shown in Joe Bausch's photo thread). The fairways are wide, but the gunch/fescue separating them is very severe in season and pretty much results in a lost ball after tromping around the stuff. There are also cuts of gunch that get pretty close to the fairways and greens and really leave no recovery assuming you can even find your ball. Saying this, there are many good shots that are asked of and if the course was kept firmer and with less grass it has enough going for it to be very fun.

The greens are challenging and with interest, especially if you end up with a lot of longer putts that have to go across the ridges that separate the different parts of the greens.

Playing the course, I find that my scores tend to cluster either above or below my handicap. It all depends an where the misses end up, if I can find them I'll score well, if they end up in the gunch my score blows up. This disparity of outcome is also true around the greens, there are some very severe spots around the greens given the slopes and how deep the primary rough tends to be kept.

Summing it up, I think the course has the following generalized features:

Wide fairways but with penal outcomes if you miss them by any meaningful amount (this includes the gunch as well as deep and well placed bunkers).

Greens that are large with fairly well defined areas separating pin placements that have enough slope and borrows to have interest.

Green surrounds that while not natural looking have good architectural features that would allow for an interesting ground game (assuming conditions are firm enough). Furthermore, the green surrounds can be very challenging given some of the severity of some of the slopes and the depth of the bunkers.

Of the three courses at Hershey, the Links is a fairly distant third in my book due primarily to my bias to parkland layouts that more readily allow for recovery shots. If they eased off on the fescue and kept the course firmer and with less grass (basically similar to what I remember Wren Dale playing like) I would certainly play it more frequently. I understand that Philly Cricket made this type of maintenance revision on the Militia Hill course. All in all the architecture is good and the bones are definitely there for good golf. The visuals will never be minimalist/naturalist or golden age, but the golf that's asked for is good.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2012, 11:08:21 AM »
I doubt you find much of their work that is held in high esteem on here.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2012, 10:54:22 AM »
Anyone with experience at Dundarave, on Prince Edward Island? It is featured in a Travelin' Joe Passov piece on golf.com. What interested me is, it is described as very difficult, not an adjective normally associated with H-F courses.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 11:50:29 AM »
I've played Hershey Links and Shelter Harbor. The former is quite good, but the latter is awesome--one of my all-time favorites.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Brian Laurent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 02:34:41 PM »
Calusa Pines in Naples, FL is VERY good.
"You know the two easiest jobs in the world? College basketball coach or golf course superintendent, because everybody knows how to do your job better than you do." - Roy Williams | @brianjlaurent | @OHSuperNetwork

Sinclair Eaddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 07:46:20 PM »
Brian, I agree with your assessment of Calusa. I would also add Naples National and Hamilton Farm to that list. These three designs are serious golf courses with considerable architectural merit. On a Midwest trip a few years ago I also played a public track in the St. Louis area called Anbriar-- a links style course in very good condition.

Tiger, I can think of a lot of modern designers with half-baked ideas but H&F certainly rank high in that second tier below Fazio, Dye, Nicklaus, Doak  in my opinion. GCA members have had nothing but great things to say about Calusa in past threads.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 08:24:09 PM »
I found Tiger Bernhardt's comment to be ignorant. Good to see the support coming in.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2012, 01:51:47 AM »
Out here in CO, I play The Heritage at Westmoor once or twice a year, usually early in the spring.

Not a terribly good location or interesting piece of land, and the noise from the nearby Jeffco airport is insufferable when you are playing the back nine, but the course itself is good. I like the long uphill par-five on the back (13?) and the short par-three right after it (14?) which is hidden in the side of the hill. I always get the idea that a lot of architects wouldn't think to put a hole there.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hurdzan and Fry Designs
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2012, 09:28:29 AM »
I agree with Tim ... Shelter Harbor is very good.

Widow's Walk, on the other hand, is terrible. Or at least it was when it first opened. Not sure if they've softened the course since. But their initial marketing approach was to brag about all the balls a few pros lost when they played there. It was about as tight a course as I've ever seen, with environmentally protected areas practically abutting some of the greens.

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