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Ben Voelker

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Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« on: September 03, 2012, 08:25:37 PM »
Update: Thanks to Joe Bausch for cluing me in on the trick for resizing the photos.  No more slider bar!

I was out at Knoll West in Parsippany, NJ this weekend and considering the event that is coming up in a few weeks, I thought I would put together a photo tour of the course.  It is fairly well discussed here, but I have yet to find a photo tour of the course, so here goes:

Knoll West is a public facility owned by the town of Parsippany, about 30 miles west of NYC.  I am sure others on the board know much more about the history than I do, but I understand the course was originally built in 1929 by Charles Banks for some wealthy local residents.  The depression hit them hard and the town purchased the club before it was opened.  It is definitely fully public, but has a bit of a private club ambiance including locker rooms, club storage, etc.  In my experience the course is significantly less busy than other local public courses, especially on weekend afternoons.

All yardages are from the white tees, which play 6,479 yards and a par of 70.

Course Layout:


Scorecard:


The scorecard is from their website.  According to the scorecard they have now at the course, they have added new back tees on 11 and 15, bringing the yardage from the blues to 6,850.

Hole 1, Par 4, 409 yards

Tee:


Tee zoomed in:


Approach from right side:


Front greenside bunker:


Green from front right:


Hidden bunker behind green:


Green from right side with lots of internal contour:


Looking back:


Hole 2, Par 4, 426 yards

Tee:


Tee zoomed in:


Approach from center of fairway:


Slightly closer to the green:


Green from front left, one of the coolest on the course:


Another hidden bunker, back left:


Lots of internal contour:


Hole 3, Par 3, 188 yards

Tee:


Tee zoomed in:


The redan slope front right of the green:


Nasty bunker right of the kickplate front right of the green:


Green:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 10:08:03 PM by Ben Voelker »

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 08:48:46 PM »
Hole 4, Par 4, 383 yards

Tee:


Tee zoomed in:


From the tee, a blind carry over the cross bunker is required.

Once accomplished, the golfer has this view from the fairway:


To get an idea of the depth of the greenside bunkers at Knoll West, the first photo is from the lip…


…and the second is from the bunker:


Green from front left:


Green from behind:


Slope off the back of the green, typical of many of the greens at Knoll West:


Hole 5, Par 5, 525 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee, with a barrage of cross bunkers to carry:


From just short of the last cross bunker:


From just past the last cross bunker:


Approach from just past the mounds in the previous photo:


Green from front left:


Internal green contours:


From behind the green, yet another hidden bunker:


Hole 6, Par 3, 142 yards

Tee:


Green complex, with surrounding bunkers:


Green from back right, lots of contour:


Same view from slightly closer to the ground to reveal more of the contour:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:35:23 AM by Ben Voelker »

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (Front Nine Posted)
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 09:04:13 PM »
Hole 7, Par 4, 355 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


From in front of the cross bunker:


Center of the fairway, past the cross bunker:


Green complex:


Hole 8, Par 4, 406 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from the tee, the green opens up a bit from the right, which is right where another cross bunker is placed:


A more detailed view of the devilish cross bunker on the right side of the fairway:


Approach from the left:


Approach from the right:


Green complex:


Hole 9, Par 4, 380 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


Approach to green benched into the hillside:


Closeup of the frighteningly deep greenside bunkers:


I like that the greenside bunkers are at about the same elevation as the fairway bunkers.  With the green sitting on a big plateau, these are easily 20 foot deep bunkers relative to the green surface:


A tricky contour for the day’s hole location:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:39:16 AM by Ben Voelker »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (First 6 Holes Posted)
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 09:09:30 PM »
Ben,

Thanks for the photos.

On the history, Mr. Aiello owned the club.  At his death, Bloomfield College purchased it.  When they went broke, the town of Parsippany purchased it.  My club tried to arrange a swap around the time Bloomfield College was purchasing the club, but it didn't work out.

Unfortunately, the camera doesn't pickup the wonderful contours in the greens.

# 2 is a great double plateau and # 3 has a very interesting spine in it.

# 6 is the short with nice contours as well.

It's a terrific and challenging par 70

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (Front Nine Posted)
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 09:17:23 PM »
Hole 10, Par 4, 385 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


Approach from the center of the fairway:


Green complex from front left:


Hole 11, Par 4, 407 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from the tee, the tee ball disappears over the ridge, making this a semi-blind drive:


Approach:


Green from short in the fairway:


Green from right side, where the horseshoe ridge can be seen in more detail:


Hole 12, Par 4, 370 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


View down the fairway from just short of the left cross bunker:


View from the right side of the fairway:


Front left greenside bunker:


Green from rough short and right of the green:


Back right bunker and the back half of the green:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:42:30 AM by Ben Voelker »

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (First 6 Holes Posted)
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 09:27:35 PM »
Ben,

Thanks for the photos.

On the history, Mr. Aiello owned the club.  At his death, Bloomfield College purchased it.  When they went broke, the town of Parsippany purchased it.  My club tried to arrange a swap around the time Bloomfield College was purchasing the club, but it didn't work out.

Unfortunately, the camera doesn't pickup the wonderful contours in the greens.

# 2 is a great double plateau and # 3 has a very interesting spine in it.

# 6 is the short with nice contours as well.

It's a terrific and challenging par 70

Pat,

Thanks for the correction on the history.  I knew someone on here would know it better than me.

I couldn't agree more regarding the green contours.  There is great variety between internal contouring (1, 2, 3, 6, 11, 14) and some surprisingly tilted greens (12, 13 and 18 come to mind off the top of my head).

IMO, the only weakness is a bit of a lack of variety, especially the absence of a true short par 4 and the similarity between the two par 5's.

Knoll West is one of the more complete tests of one's long game I have played, with cross bunkers on most holes ensuring you must know your distance and line well to avoid losing a stroke.

I have not been in NJ long, but for my money, Knoll West has to be one of the top 2-3 public courses in the state.

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (12th Hole Posted)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 09:46:21 PM »
Hole 13, Par 3, 217 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


From just short of the topshot bunker:


Right greenside bunker:


Short of the green and the Biarritz valley:


Side view of the valley short of the green:


Green, with back to front slope and nice internal contouring:


Looking back toward the tee:


Hole 14, Par 4, 410 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee, with the best angle into the green from the left:


Approach from right side of the fairway:


Green from short and right:


Green from behind, the large hump over the left third of the green can been seen just right of the flag in this photo:


Hole 15, Par 5, 520 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


From the center of the landing area:


Just short of the cross bunker protecting the preferred layup location:


Green from front left:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:43:50 AM by Ben Voelker »

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (12th Hole Posted)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 09:48:18 PM »
8 = double plateau?

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (12th Hole Posted)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 10:00:01 PM »
Hole 16, Par 4, 371 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


Approach from center of the fairway:


Green complex from front left:


Hole 17, Par 3, 158 yards

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


From just past the deceptive front bunker, which is actually 20 yards  front of the green:


Green:


Hole 18, Par 4, 427 yards

This has to be one of the best closing holes on a public course in the state, if not the region.  It is long, uphill and full of danger, especially the front left bunker.

Tee:


Zoomed in from tee:


From right side of the fairway:


Slightly closer to the green on the right side of the fairway:


Nasty fairway bunker on the left side that is out of play for all except a duck hook:


At the last cross bunker:


Just short and left of the green, with the deep greenside bunker looming:


Another deep bunker right punishes those who bail out too far away from the more visible left bunker:
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:49:32 AM by Ben Voelker »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (12th Hole Posted)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 10:04:16 PM »
The original clubhouse was a Wendehack design, unfortunately, it burned down and they never tried to replicate the original.

13 is a neat Biarritz and # 18 is a great finishing hole.

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour (12th Hole Posted)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 10:05:13 PM »
8 = double plateau?

Mark,

Perhaps the green has a bit of that quality, however #2 is much closer to a double plateau green IMO.

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 04:29:03 PM »
Bump, to go with the commentary in the event thread.

Sean_A

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 04:17:07 AM »
Ben

Thanks for the tour.  The course looks quite interesting in that Raynoresque way.  #18 does look to be a cracker, but I wonder if its more appealing because of less trees?

Do you think the 17th used to have its green extend up to the front bunker?  If not, do you think it may improve the hole? 

I know what you mean for variety, there are a lot of similar looking tee shots. 

Is this a public course?  It sort of has a look of an old public, but one is never sure.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark McKeever

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 09:39:05 AM »
Ben,

There are many areas of green that used to be extended, but I don't think that before 17 green is one of them.  I could be wrong though.  There are a lot of similar tee shots where a gentle fade is required, but it didn't feel that repetitive while I played it.

The course is semi private I believe?

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 09:46:41 AM »
@Sean

According to George Bahto, Knoll West was founded as a private club just before the Great Depression by a group of 30 wealthy men who desired a private playground even though they were members of other clubs. They couldn''t maintain the course after they lost their fortunes so they deeded the course over to a major creditor. The course remained private and morphed into the area's "Italian Club." Eventually, the club failed and was acquired by the town of Parsippany. It is public with memberships.
George Bahto was the moving force behind the restoration of the course.


http://www.knollgolfclub.com/index.asp

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=51802.0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Mike Hendren

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 09:51:20 AM »
 I'm generally fond of trees, but it would benefit this course greatly if every single one on the property was felled.  That said, it's an interesting study to see how Banks' engineered architecture pairs with forestation.  As a public course with a relatively tight routing in spots, the trees do provided some needed protection, however.

Despite the most rude treatment I've ever received in a golf shop (was it my accent?) I really like this golf course.  A few observations:

The Biarritz is the most disappointing I've played.  Firm turf conditions might help.

A blast off the tee with the driver as even the shorter hitter is given meaningful options to carry or skirt fairway bunkers.

The 11th green has a higher back tier with a middle nose that runs down the middle of the lower front tier - simple, yet unique.  Exhibit A to support the contention that there's absolutely no excuse for an architect to design a pedestrian green.

The 14th could really benefit from tree clearing down the right side to entice the player to drive in that direction.  The approach is a subtle reverse redan that begs for a running cut from the left side of the fairway.

A lot of cool back-side bunkering that is rendered useless by today's aerial game.  

This course must have been a brutal test back-in-the-day when even the best player was required to tact his ball around the deep bunkers.

BTW, I might be Bogey but I did get up and down for par from the front left bunker at the last.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark McKeever

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 10:41:08 AM »
Please note to anyone that is thinking of heading out there.  The course ONLY takes cash.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

George_Bahto

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 07:32:05 PM »
I’m glad most of you liked the course and I hope others will get there one day, even to see the greens.

Some background and observations:

History:

The course was originally built for 30, old-man (older gents like me), millionaires (not me) who kept their memberships at Montclair GC, Essex County CC and Baltusrol including Thomas Watson, founder of IBM, J R Monroe, Monroe Business Machines along with the wealth of North Jersey. Also Investment Banker, Jansen Noyes, also a driving force behind Fishers Island Club

They asked Banks to find a suitable relatively flat property - did not want to do hill-climbing - that was close to their homes.

Cliff Wedehack was hired to build their clubhouse with the best of all amenities and by the time they were done, they had spent an astronomical 2 million dollars on the project (no rock blasting and such - an easy site to build on).

Built in 1928, opening in 1929, most of these men were broke by the time the course opened but they held on for about ten years before selling to one of their food and beverage vendor, who paid pennies on the dollar for the club.

The next 20+ years were the hey-day of the club - celebs as members and guests, including Gleason, Dorsey Bros, ballplayers from the three NY major league teams (DiMaggio, Ford, Duke Snyder). It was a second home for the great Gene Sarazen and his buds.

It became sort of the Italian Golf Club of the area and the ownership kept course conditions among the best in NJ.

It was sold to a college in the 70s and went public - this is when I joined (itz 5 minutes from my house !!)

Next the entire complex was purchased under the Green Acres program by the Town of Parsippany.

The Course:

The heart of the Knoll is the long par-4s and the green surfaces.

The undulations are such that greens speeds over 10.5 render the greens near un-puttable. Because the course is open to the public (sort of) and there are outings (lots of) and there have been problems losing greens (even fairway) in the past thru questionable practices. The green  usually putt at about 7 to 8 feet - a crime if there we was one - itz like putting on green pudding, but I’m biased.

Understand my personal position, if you will. The course is owned by the town whose administration has few golfers and are not the least interested the restorations or adding money to the course.

Although there is sort of a inner club within the club there are no committees and I have never had any power. It is a near miracle we got done what we did. Money came in drips and drabs over an 8-year period and since it was a township facility, every year the contractor had to out to bid and I had a different contractor every year (most were local landscapers) ..... but in the end it got done.

Only 5 inconsequential bunkers were covered over and those were those that were 180-yds off the tee at the right corner of a fairway. And two fairway “framing” bunkers on the Redan down where the cart path turn to the left.

Everything else on the course is as Charles Banks built it except (wisely) when the Aiello family owned the course, they added back tees (perfectly).

The course is difficult to score on. Even the sticks usually play matches from the white tees. The blues are tough.

There was not a lot of room for adding back tees but most of my tee plan was carried out, lengthening tees on 2 - 11 - 14 - 15 - 16 .... Pat Mucci, for year we played the 15th par-5 from directly behind 14-green, adding some 40-yards to the hole.

I planned new tees on the 8th and 9th as well as a tiger tee on 18 - that would have made that hole about 475-par-4 - but ran into the usual BS from the town concerning money and the maintenance bunch saying these changes were not necessary.

Again I have NO POWER (except to go public occasionally) I did my thing and now am a member at Sleepy Hollow but visit the Knoll a lot.

Architecture, Trees and Condition:

Yes the trees have certainly grown over the years and there are drives on a number of holes that are really tight. It was worse. Lots of trees have been taken down and a lot more should be. Again resistance from the town and the maintenance dept.

We take them down and the town’s arborist comes in and plants new ones in every open space.

If I had the power and the magic wand, I’m sure you know how the course would be today, opening up fairways and proper green speeds would be first on my agenda.

Mike H - firming up the front section of the Biarritz would be in order but it has come a long way - from a tight circle of a “rear” green and a 5 foot-wide walkway thru 5-inch rough in the front section to the present green (as such) and approach expansion has made a big difference.

Holes:

The second green is Banks’ version of Double Plateau where he connects the two plateaus in the rear - this is a really great green. The original green used to extend about 20-feet more back down the fairway - it was 20,000 sq ft .... you can see the rise to the green back in the fairway.

One of my peeves about double plateau greens built by CBM and SR is that each plateau, although they look fearsome, are really easy to read on the plateaus and between plateaus, because each plateau is relatively flat. Not so on the second at the Knoll. Fun putting on this green.

There are relatively few (what some call) template holes at the Knoll.

#1, a Road hole green complex - #2 the DP - #3 Redan - #4 Hog’s Back w/Lion’s Month approach (although off centerline) - #5 some version of the Long with no Hell’s Bunker - #6, a Short - #8, some moderate version of a Bottle, with only a pinched in area up the fairway. #9 was once a true Punchowl but the Aiello’s took about 30-feet off the left “bowl” - no one could get out of the 30-ft bunker (you still have a lot of trouble there). #13, the Biarritz, #14 is sort of a flopped over Road hole green complex and #17 is vague Eden (although you have a lot of trouble getting close to most pins.

The front fairway section of the Eden, #17, was never green - never meant to be (although I thought about it occasionally)

I was originally on what was called the “Mayor’s Advisory Committee” a way he had to let us vent and have his informants hear what we were thinking. Again we had no power. When I began the restoration process I had to get off the “committee” - conflict of interet6,you know  - hah.

By the way, the condition (to me) still sucks) but in all fairness, itz the best itz been in many a year.

Anyhow - they all said it couldn’t be done.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 07:34:00 PM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ben Voelker

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 10:31:33 PM »
George,

Thank you for that.  You have provided fascinating reading about Knoll West.  While conditions may not be up to modern standards, they are really quite good, especially for the public golf crowd.

The great thing about Knoll West IMO is that it provides a golden age of GCA style course that very few public golfers ever get to see otherwise.

Thank you for all your hard work so that people like me have a course at our disposal that is truly enjoyable to play.

John Ezekowitz

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 12:44:13 AM »
One thing that strikes me from the pictures is how the fronting of the greens plays with one's depth perception. On several holes (1, 3, 7, 14), fronting bunkers seem to be pushed up just that little bit from the fairway so that it appears that there is no green where the pin is. It is more subtle than greenside bunkering that features big lips and rough on the other side leading down a slope to the green, but to my eye, it would be more disquieting for an approach shot.

I'm anxious to play Knoll when I am back in Jersey.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 07:42:05 AM »
@Sean

According to George Bahto, Knoll West was founded as a private club just before the Great Depression by a group of 30 wealthy men who desired a private playground even though they were members of other clubs. They couldn''t maintain the course after they lost their fortunes so they deeded the course over to a major creditor. The course remained private and morphed into the area's "Italian Club." Eventually, the club failed and was acquired by the town of Parsippany. It is public with memberships.
George Bahto was the moving force behind the restoration of the course.

Steve, the club didn't fail, the deceased owner's daughter, the executrix of his estate refused to sell the course to any one of several member factions, choosing instead to sell it to Bloomfield College.   It was Bloomfield College that failed, resulting in the town of Parsippany acquiring the course.

At one time my club, Preakness Hills, considered swapping properties when Bloomfield College owned the course, but unfortunately, that never occurred.  Had the swap been completed I think The Knoll would be a top 100 today.



http://www.knollgolfclub.com/index.asp

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=51802.0
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 07:48:06 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

David Cronheim

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 09:17:42 AM »
I had the pleasure of a personal tour from George and the work he's done there is absolutely first rate. I can only imagine what it must have used to look like because George's restoration has clearly brought it back (architecturally) to its Banks glory. The comments about firmer turf conditions are something that George remarked upon as well, but from what I gather he's made big inroads with the Super already. I imagine that things are only going to get better.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Mike Hendren

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 09:25:24 AM »
Uncle George, after getting a taste of the "club within a club" during my visit I can't imagine the political veil you had to pierce to get the course to where it is today.  I cannot overstate my appreciation and admiration for what you accomplished.

Well done.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark McKeever

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Re: Knoll West (Banks) Photo Tour
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 09:25:56 AM »
It seems like the course has come along way and I look forward to its progression.  Great work thus far George!
Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

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